MacGregorSailors.com

I have been watching this list along with the sailnet list for years now. Because of this, most of my questions concerning the Mac X and M have been answered in great detail. Thank you all. Last year I sold my North American 23 to move up to a larger boat. I still want to be able to tralier my boat but needed more room for family. ( 2 kids now) The Mac seems to fit that need. I am concerned about the need to reef frequently. It seems that when someone mentions the wind picking up to 15-20 knots, they feel the need to reef. I've been out more times than I can remember in the NA 23 with those wind conditions never feeling the need to reduce sail. My question is, is this a valid concern? At what point do you feel the need to reef? I also want to thank you all for the knowlege you've passed on to me and to others lurking around your discussion board.

Hello:
In my experience, 17 knots is when I start thinking about reefing. It depends on whether wind is building or steady. The mac has water ballast so it doesn't "harden up" the way lead ballasted boats do. The mac does better on it's feet ,so to speak, so that's what I use in the final analysis. 17~20 knots of wind on a broad reach nets my boat ~ 6.5 knots and 5* to 10* of heel. 17~20 knots of wind when pointing would cause me to reef to get rid of weather helm and too much heel (20*~30*). The Mac is more tender too. With gear and ballast it only weighs maybe 4000 lbs. I was in the San Juans this summer with a friend who's 30 footer weighed 16000 lbs. You walk around that boat under sail and you barely notice any change in the trim. When I walk around the Mac I represent a significant shift in ballast.
95 26X with stock main and 150% genny.

The Mac is a light boat, and hence very trailerable. But it's not stout enough to carry full sail at the wind speeds that other boats might. So what? I suppose a dyed-in-wool sailor might be dismayed. But I'm not and don't really understand why it matters ... a small price for the accomodations and versatility of the Mac. On any average summer day in SF, I pull down the mid-reef before my Mac-X leaves the dock. This means I'll have that reef in winds of 14 kn, but it honestly won't diminish the fun. Soon enough, early afternoon, I'll be very pleased for the shorter main.

I've never felt need for the second (higher) reef, and my boat performs about exactly as described above. In fact, on a close reach in full whitecaps, it has felt like a train on tracks, heeled 25 degrees at 7+ knots w/ reefed main and full jib. Few to none of the under-30' monohulls will deliver that rush, even with full sails, regardless of wind.

It's very important to reset your frame of reference with this boat. Spend time & money on every sail control you can imagine and enjoy it!


P.S. Split adj backstay, corrected mast rake, quality foresail, compound outhaul, hi-purchase rigid vang, for starters. Next - upgraded boom, removable traveler, rudder mods, trunk mods?

I've jib, and I sail without reefing with more than 15 knots. The only thing that I must do is to take the main sheet in the hand and to drop it when the wind comes up.
I read that all people in this forum use genoa, but with my experience, jib is enough. It's only 2 years old, but, when I must change it, will I must buy a genoa?

The genoa is good for higher speeds under lighter wind conditions, but you can certainly do without it. In higher winds, the jib is better than a partially furled genoa. The only question is at what wind speed the break point occurs. It depends on the prevailing sailing conditions in your area as to which sail will be more useful.

We have both sails, but the jib has never been out of the bag.

On the lake where we do most of our sailing, there's another 26X which has only the jib, and under the prevailing lighter wind conditions I estimate we have about a one knot speed advantage. I'd like to think that's mostly due to my superior sailing ability, but I doubt it.

I've read opinions in sailing magazines stating that an oversized genoa is not a particularly useful sail in a cruising sailboat.

i sail my x on the baltic sea, and it has been quite windy there last year. i was out several times in winds of more than 6 beaufort. the boat can handle it. yes, you have to reef earlier than keel boats - simply a question of physics, a hull with waterballast in the bottom is less stiff than one with a lead keel. i usually do it in this order: full main + full jib, reefed main + full jib, reefed main + partly furled jib, full jib only, reefed jib only. last summer we had a downwind ride with jib only rolled out at 1/3, we had noticeable heeling and about 10 knots on the speedo ... must have been a force 9 to 10 i guess. but this was in a protected area with only 2 ft waves - i'd never try this on open sea (or would i ?).

like chip i mostly used my genoa in the years i sailed on the lakes round berlin. but i did not use it even one time last year on the baltic. just too windy there. and the very few times the wind died i prefered to hoist the spi rather than change the foresail on the furler.

I think like Norbert. I just buy a spi to use like genoa with light winds.

galentas, we bought the Mac to be a cruising boat for 4 adults and maybe a couple of grandkids very occasionally. Having genoa sheets running across the cockpit seats from the cars to the wenches doesn't fit in with that, and a knot or two difference in speed doesn't outweigh that. We have only the standard jib and will probably keep it that way, maybe adding a spinnaker down the road. We do have it on a roller furler, which I see as a safety issue. Where I think having a genoa vs jib would matter most to us would be if taking a long cruise with other Macs that did have genoas, and we might feel we were holding the group up when reaching or running.

Brad Barousse, the cabin, as well as the ability to motor at more than twice hull speed, were the primary attractions for the MacGregor. I won't repeat what was said about water-ballast versus keel, but I will add that the stand-up cabin headroom may put the sails up higher giving them more leverage to heel the boat.

The factory reefing sequence for depowering consists of doing whatever it takes to keep heel under 25 degrees, in this order: tighten the halyard(s) and outhaul and loosen the vang, if applicable, roll the genoa in halfway or replace it with the standard jib, reef the mainsail (the factory reef point is very deep), and finally resort to outboard power or wait it out. When sailing with one sail, the factory recommends it be the mainsail.

From what I have read here*, it appears to me, most X owners find better balance with more jib and less main, and would follow norbert's sequence with a standard jib. It also appears to me*, a number of X owners with genoas have found better balance with a halfway reef point added to the main, with a full genoa, as a first step in depowering. I'm not sure whether a halfway reef point in the main would provide sufficient relief for weather helm with only a standard jib. It also appears to me*, that many prefer that when using only one sail, it be the foresail.

Our plan* is, when in doubt, to leave the harbor with a reefed main. Should winds be lighter than expected, it's easier to remove the reef on the resulting calmer than expected waters, than have to reef on the resulting rougher waters from higher than expected winds.

* DISCLAIMER: I haven't sailed since I was a kid, and we bought our X too late in the year to sail it, so what I pass on here is only research of this forum, not personal experience.

--
Moe

I only have a standard jib on a roller furler. I also have a mid-reef because I found the factory reef to deep and finaly I have the one line reefing system installed, to make reefing easier. Usually when there is a wind 4 Beaufort (around 15 Knots) I already start of with the mid-reef on.
The waters where I sail tend to have lots of wind gushes. If the wind becomes stronger I take the jib back 1/3. So far I have never used the factory top reef, but I like the idea that it is there for emergencies (Beaufort 6) . I do not intend to buy a Genoa, I have thought about it, but as Moe mentioned the lines in the cockpit are not very attractive when you are with 4 people.

Moe wrote:... motor at more than twice hull speed, were the primary attractions for the MacGregor.

Moe, Hear, hear! Quite agree.

... doing whatever it takes to keep heel under 25 degrees, in this order: tighten the halyard(s) and outhaul and loosen the vang

Also use backstay to stretch the belly forward and flatter. But, WADR, do not loosen the vang. In fact, a 12:1 vang can add tremendously to your ability to keep the main flat and deter heel. Better yet, add the traveler, eventually a better mainsail.

... From what I have read here*, it appears to me, most X owners find better balance with more jib and less main, and would follow norbert's sequence with a standard jib.

In higher winds you'll find jib plus reefed main essential to maintaining "close to tolerable" balance (say +18 kn). My Mac is still on the edge of rounding up, after advancing the mast rake from 4 degrees to 2 aft. There's a recent quote by Hunter's designer, Henderson, that they've found recent success with smaller keel and larger rudder .... hmmmm.

... It also appears to me*, a number of X owners with genoas have found better balance with a halfway reef point added to the main, with a full genoa, as a first step in depowering.

The Genoa just seems too much sail for winds over 15 (agreeing w/ Norbert). You can reef it, but it climbs the forestay, imparting heel. The half-reefed main is essential too. Even so, if winds are steady at 15, half-Genny plus half-main just isn't nearly as much fun as a full jib w/ half-main.

... I'm not sure whether a halfway reef point in the main would provide sufficient relief for weather helm with only a standard jib.

Not sure what you mean? The mid-way reef point is worth its weight in gold - used with standard jib. Why the factory didn't add mid-reef is a mystery - it makes the boat. However, if Genoa is one's only foresail, I'm not sure the mid-reefed main adds much value.

• BTW, all my above comments relate primarily to sailing upwind. Get it nearly balanced & just try not to grin, ear-to-ear - can't be done!

I have the furled jib and genoa, and the standard deep reef on the main.

The choice of foresail has to practically be done the day before because it takes a while to change and one would not want to make the change on the water. The choice is made with the NOAA forecast.

I find that my jib is on from late February thru March, maybe into April. Then it starts to get hot and steamy and the genoa goes on.

What to reef depends on where you're headed and where the wind's coming from. I wake up on a glass pond in Paradise Cove and NOAA says winds SSW 20 knots. I wanna go NE (back to home port). With wind on the stern I go with a full gennie all bagged out and leave the main bungied down. It's much bigger than the main and can be furled if necessary.

If I have to beat back in heavy wind, I'm thinking to myself, "When you going to get that mid reef point put in?" Is the distance and time I will be sailing worth making the change to jib? Or just roll it with a furled genoa? And maybe its another bum forecast.

Whats a spi, the big chute?

But, WADR, do not loosen the vang. In fact, a 12:1 vang can add tremendously to your ability to keep the main flat and deter heel.

I found that loosening the vang is very effective in reducing heel. It will create substantial twist in the sail, spilling the wind in the top end of the sail, similar to bringing the genoa blocks further aft.

I agree that the 150 genny is a problem at winds over about 15 knts. I put up the regualr jib for the first time last year and found that overall handling is much improved (heeling, pointing, etc). One of the things I will be working on during the coming season is to improve the procedure of changing sails on the furler.

Moe wrote: Having genoa sheets running across the cockpit seats from the cars to the wenches doesn't fit in with that, and a knot or two difference in speed doesn't outweigh that.

Who are the wenches? Wife plus other adult females, grandkids?

Jib or genny, the existing winch locations are not friendly even with only one crew. When singlehanding in particular, they couldn't be more poorly situated.

Consider a second pair of winches on the aft corners. If I were willing to settle for another pair of stock Lewmars at about $200 per pair, I'd already have them on my boat. However, I've got my heart set on self tailers, and the best I can find them for is about $600 per pair, so they're on the "capital improvement list" for (maybe) next year.

You know when *I* say that, it has to be a Freudian slip!

--
Moe

Harry van der Meer wrote:I found that loosening the vang is very effective in reducing heel. It will create substantial twist in the sail, spilling the wind in the top end of the sail, similar to bringing the genoa blocks further aft.

I've found that pulling strenously down on the boom w/ vang pulls bagginess from the main, just like bending the mast forward with the backstay does. Can't do it with only a 4:1 vang, but the rigid vang helps flatten the sail. Different strokes, I guess.