MacGregorSailors.com

I love this website.
I find it always informative, often inspiring, and sometimes very entertaining
And like a lot of us, I visit it almost daily, and contribute a post here and there when I think I can add value to the topic. But .. I have one Pet Peeve that I need to get off my chest, so please indulge my following rant.

NOT using KNOTS!

We are sailors, and sailors use the Nautical System for expressing “Speed and Distance” when on the water.
- We do not use the Imperial or Metric systems, or any other.
- We express: Boat Speed, Wind Speed, and Tidal Current Speed … in Knots.
- We express: Distance in … Nautical Miles.

So many people use MPH or KPH. This drives me nuts!

1) I would expect this from fisherman, but not from us sailors I can say that because I am a recreational fisherman and my ocean-going fast-boat fishin’ buddies wouldn’t know how fast a knot was if it was stuck up their transom. When I asked how fast his new boat goes he said “80 KPH”. I said “how many knots”, he said “with an engine this big I don’t need to know that stuff”. He’s been on the water a lot longer than I have, and we catch lots of big Pacific Salmon, but I always wear my PFD done up a little tighter when onboard with that skipper.

2) I can also see why boat manufacturers like MacGregor express their top speed as 24 MPH. I sounds faster than 21 knots, and their biggest buying demographic is new boaters who probably do not know how fast 21 knots is.

3) I can also see why people who do not know the Nautical System would use their Native System. It’s their natural reference. I am Canadian, and was raised in the 60’s on the Imperial System, then in the 70’s I had to convert to the Metric System. But when I started sailing, I learned the Nautical System.

Why Use Knots?

1) First and foremost: it’s just plain Good Seamanship.
As skippers, we are responsible for the safety or our vessel and crew (friends and family). This nautical system form of measuring speed and distance is universal. Regardless of what system you use on land, Sailors (boaters) have a common language on the water.

2) Second: All Nautical Charts are measured in Nautical Miles, for a reason. And that reason is because the world is round. If you want specific details of the why, see this website http://www.onlineconversion.com/faq_07.htm

3) Third: All Tide Charts express tidal current speed in Knots for a reason). I sail in the Pacific Northwest were tides can be up to 14 feet, and tidal current run to 7 knots in tide-gates. Knowing how many knots the current is verse how many knots my boat can go is extremely important to passage planning and safety.

4) Fourth: In order to do any proper passage planning you need to be comparing apples with apples. By that I mean nautical miles verses knots of boat speed. If your planned trip is 30 nautical miles, and you cruise at 10 knots, it will take you 3 hours. It’s simple, and easy math. Is that not easier than trying to figure out how far it will take you to go 30 nautical miles on the chart at a speed of 11.5 mph. (hint: 11.5 mph is 10 knots). If you do not know how to calculate Distance/Speed/Time, use the “60-D-STreet” rule. See this website: http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/eta.htm.

5) Fifth: Fuel consumption/distance calculations: Using Nautical Miles and Knot Speed is more accurate and safer. I know that on average we use 1 litre of fuel for every 1 nautical mile traveled (cruising at 4800rpm making 8-10 knots over ground). We have 2x34 litre tanks on board for a total of 68 liters of fuel, so our onboard range is about 70+ nautical miles. I need to switch fuel tanks at the 35 nautical mile mark. So in my passage planning, I will see where that is on the chart and ensure it is a safe place to switch tanks, if not I will make a note to change tanks earlier. * I also understand the benefit of calculating fuel consumption per hour based on rpm. Especially where tidal current has a strong effect on consumption and speed.

6) Chart Water Depths are different. Some are Meters, some Fathoms, some Feet.

Final thoughts:

If you are NOT using the Nautical System because:
- you don’t know how. Please learn. Take a navigation course. It will pay off for you and your family.

If you are NOT using the Nautical System because:
- you don’t want to. Then stop it! We are sailors, use the on the water nautical language so we all can communicate better.


Wow, I feel better now I got that off my chest. Thanks for letting me rant

Darry

Nag, nag, nag

I actually did not know how much of a convert I have become until last week when I had a non-sailor friend to help me race. He kept asking me what the sailing terms meant in ordinary english. I felt very sailory

From what I remember from Chapmans, MPH is a correct term for fresh inland waterways/lakes.
Knots , (nautical miles per hour), for saltwater.
Can't speak to Kilometers Per Hour.
My memory may be faulty, however.
It frequently is.

Yea, I've noticed people here use MPH often.

My only guess is we want to exaggerate the speed of our boats. If we reported in knots, we would feel our boats are slower than they are. My boat goes 18MPH but only 15 knots.
Also, my GPS defaults to MPH, so maybe others do as well.

You are correct on Knots, wind speed, ground over water,current and so on.
Problem is many Mac. owners use MPH ,as a result I will answer posts that say MPH in MPH and Posts that say Knots in Knots.
Navigating I always use Knots (Natical Mile) but on my gps hand held I use mph as MPH is faster than GPS in reading so it appears I am going faster that makes me feel good.
Just like, is Blue faster than White?
It's all in what makes you happy.
Dave

Wind Chime wrote:I love this website.
I find it always informative, often inspiring, and sometimes very entertaining
And like a lot of us, I visit it almost daily, and contribute a post here and there when I think I can add value to the topic. But .. I have one Pet Peeve that I need to get off my chest, so please indulge my following rant.

NOT using KNOTS!

We are sailors, and sailors use the Nautical System for expressing “Speed and Distance” when on the water.
- We do not use the Imperial or Metric systems, or any other.
- We express: Boat Speed, Wind Speed, and Tidal Current Speed … in Knots.
- We express: Distance in … Nautical Miles.

So many people use MPH or KPH. This drives me nuts!

1) I would expect this from fisherman, but not from us sailors I can say that because I am a recreational fisherman and my ocean-going fast-boat fishin’ buddies wouldn’t know how fast a knot was if it was stuck up their transom. When I asked how fast his new boat goes he said “80 KPH”. I said “how many knots”, he said “with an engine this big I don’t need to know that stuff”. He’s been on the water a lot longer than I have, and we catch lots of big Pacific Salmon, but I always wear my PFD done up a little tighter when onboard with that skipper.

2) I can also see why boat manufacturers like MacGregor express their top speed as 24 MPH. I sounds faster than 21 knots, and their biggest buying demographic is new boaters who probably do not know how fast 21 knots is.

3) I can also see why people who do not know the Nautical System would use their Native System. It’s their natural reference. I am Canadian, and was raised in the 60’s on the Imperial System, then in the 70’s I had to convert to the Metric System. But when I started sailing, I learned the Nautical System.

Why Use Knots?

1) First and foremost: it’s just plain Good Seamanship.
As skippers, we are responsible for the safety or our vessel and crew (friends and family). This nautical system form of measuring speed and distance is universal. Regardless of what system you use on land, Sailors (boaters) have a common language on the water.

2) Second: All Nautical Charts are measured in Nautical Miles, for a reason. And that reason is because the world is round. If you want specific details of the why, see this website http://www.onlineconversion.com/faq_07.htm

3) Third: All Tide Charts express tidal current speed in Knots for a reason). I sail in the Pacific Northwest were tides can be up to 14 feet, and tidal current run to 7 knots in tide-gates. Knowing how many knots the current is verse how many knots my boat can go is extremely important to passage planning and safety.

4) Fourth: In order to do any proper passage planning you need to be comparing apples with apples. By that I mean nautical miles verses knots of boat speed. If your planned trip is 30 nautical miles, and you cruise at 10 knots, it will take you 3 hours. It’s simple, and easy math. Is that not easier than trying to figure out how far it will take you to go 30 nautical miles on the chart at a speed of 11.5 mph. (hint: 11.5 mph is 10 knots). If you do not know how to calculate Distance/Speed/Time, use the “60-D-STreet” rule. See this website: http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/eta.htm.

5) Fifth: Fuel consumption/distance calculations: Using Nautical Miles and Knot Speed is more accurate and safer. I know that on average we use 1 litre of fuel for every 1 nautical mile traveled (cruising at 4800rpm making 8-10 knots over ground). We have 2x34 litre tanks on board for a total of 68 liters of fuel, so our onboard range is about 70+ nautical miles. I need to switch fuel tanks at the 35 nautical mile mark. So in my passage planning, I will see where that is on the chart and ensure it is a safe place to switch tanks, if not I will make a note to change tanks earlier. * I also understand the benefit of calculating fuel consumption per hour based on rpm. Especially where tidal current has a strong effect on consumption and speed.

6) Chart Water Depths are different. Some are Meters, some Fathoms, some Feet.

Final thoughts:

If you are NOT using the Nautical System because:
- you don’t know how. Please learn. Take a navigation course. It will pay off for you and your family.

If you are NOT using the Nautical System because:
- you don’t want to. Then stop it! We are sailors, use the on the water nautical language so we all can communicate better.


Wow, I feel better now I got that off my chest. Thanks for letting me rant

Darry

Darry,
I completely agree. I've often used my favorite saying to members of our local cruising club although "knot" necessarily regarding to Knots... A member may refer to a map. My return is quick and deliberate...

"Texaco has maps, we use charts".

Although I can't remember a consistent theme of referring to nautical charts as maps on this board... Which is a good thing.



Bob

Darry,
Excellent rant. Well thought out. Must have taken a lot of time. I live and sail inland U.S.A. so for now my sailing posts will be in MPH, MPG, and feet like my charts. When I post about flying it will be knots, pounds per hour, and feet. When (someday I hope) I get to sail off shore I’ll post in knots, fathoms, and knots per gallon. For all the above my headings will be in true for electronic (INS, GPS, Chart Plotter, LORAN, …) and manual headings (stopwatch, drift, compass, …) will be magnetic.

I wonder many years ago when I was low level, night, in the weather at say 500 feet AGL at 540 knots and told my pilot the next turn was a right 45 degree bank turn, to heading 324 degrees (true), the minimum safe altitude was 3200 feet MSL – stand by to turn - ready – ready – turn if he really cared weather I was reading from a chart or a map? I guess it all worked OK as I’m not 35,000 pound bug splat on the side of some mountain.
Be safe,
Dan

Having been involved in sailing for over 40 years I agree that proper terms should be used by all yatchmen. Knots not mph. Fathoms not feet. The front of the boat is the pointy end. Use proper terms likes ropes and wires and [pulleys. left and right and downstairs and the ubiquitous thingy. What the heck. Get out and have a good time. a lot of sailors wouldn't know if they were full and by, in irons or backwinded but it doesn't stop them having fun as I have done with this parody. Fair Winds and Full Sails...Old Salt

I have been into aviation a lot longer then sailing and in aviation we use knots. I have got quite used to using knots at high speeds to the point I cant even tell you how fast we are going in MPH while flying. However this is exactly why I cant use knots while sailing because it would take a slight bit of exhilaration out of it knowing I was going that slow in knots. So with that being said check out this video of me hitting 8.1 MPH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQaq0c6Bvoc

"With a boat name like Knot Shore... it has to be good"

(famous smuckers quote)
_______________________________________________________________
Capt Erik, Admiral Jean, First Mate Christina & Swabbie Nicole
1999 MacGregor 26X, "KnotShore"
New Bern, NC

I am with you on the use of knots rather than kmph or mph.

ocean-going fast-boat fishin’ buddies wouldn’t know how fast a knot was if it was stuck up their transom.

Chapmans view on this is that inland charts use statute miles and offshore use nautical, so, as usual, trailer sailors are more encompassing than "blue water" dock queens and use both

My charts of inland waters and even Cape Cod are marked in both

(loved the aviation analogy btw...

robbarnes1965 wrote:Nag, nag, nag

I actually did not know how much of a convert I have become until last week when I had a non-sailor friend to help me race. He kept asking me what the sailing terms meant in ordinary english. I felt very sailory

"I felt very salty"--sorry, I could not help myself

Bob

We use the measurement units adopted by the charts and sailing guides for the waters on which we may sail. Examples......
1.United States Coast Pilot- Great Lakes (April 1986 issue, the newer one is on the boat).....General Information....says distances and wind speeds are in statute miles unless otherwise stated and heights are in feet.
2. Maptech chart of the Potomac River, #22, Ed.1.......states distances in statute miles but provides distance scales in nautical and statute miles and yards, and depths and nav aid and bridge heights in feet.
3. Cruising Guide to the New York State Canal System, CR 2003......states distances in statute miles, and depths and bridge heights in feet.
4. Chartracker to the Intercoastal Waterway-Norfolk to Jacksonville, CR 1998......States distances in statute miles, refers to the speed limit and wind speeds in knots (!!!), on page 20 gives a converson table for nautical and statute miles, and refers to water depth and bridge heights in feet.
Some of these documents require effort to find what units are actually used therein.
Ron

Catigale wrote:(loved the aviation analogy btw...

MPH is quite common in civilian aircraft. I think that most manufacturers changed to knots in the mid '70s, but not all have. I was in a Maule the other day that was still MPH and it was a 2000 model. I fly more aircraft that are MPH, than Kts. Most GA aircraft today are 30- 40 years old, so MPH is very much prevalent and important, as all the critical airspeeds in the POH are in MPH.

In a boat, the only thing that matters about speed is: Are you going faster, or slower than the boat you are racing? (tidal flows aside)

~Rich