raising 26m mast without raising pole

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pleb222
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raising 26m mast without raising pole

Post by pleb222 »

Hi,

I'm considering ditching the raising pole. I know some members don't use it and use a line lead back to a winch. Does anyone have experience doing this? I plan to not use the furler and go hank on jib for simplicity.

Just trying to find out if the simplicity of not having to use the pole beats out the added difficulty of raising the mast without it.

Thanks for the input.
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Re: raising 26m mast without raising pole

Post by NiceAft »

If you are getting rid of the furler, it much easier to raise the mast, but you still need something mechanical to do it.

The mast of the :macx: is much lighter. I’ve raised them both.

Is there a reason you want to not use the Mast Raising System?
Ray ~~_/)~~
pleb222
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Re: raising 26m mast without raising pole

Post by pleb222 »

It just feels like another heavy piece to carry arround! We're a family of 3 kids, and the mac is great for us, but I'm tired of sleeping with extra gear!
Phil :macm: 2003, Tohatsu TLDI 70
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Re: raising 26m mast without raising pole

Post by NiceAft »

:D
I hope someone responds with a more useful answer.
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Re: raising 26m mast without raising pole

Post by Stickinthemud57 »

+1 to the fact that raising a mast with just a forestay is easier than raising a mast along with the weight of the jib. I'm not so sure that doing it without a gin pole is a great idea.

It's a matter of vectors. The gin pole redistributes the load so that the force at the mast step is not only going forward, but also downward. In doing so it also reduces the load on the rope and at the points of attachment.

If you have a strong friend, they could lift the mast to the point where those vectors are not so severe, but you would still need a force multiplier (block and tackle or winch) to bring the mast upright.

I use the trailer winch to raise and lower my mast (26S, but the principles are the same):

https://macgregorsailors.com/mods/index ... em&id=2149

It enables me to raise the mast from the ground without needing too much muscle, eliminates the need for a block and tackle, and keeps me out from under the mast while doing so.

The less gear in the boat the better, definitely. Would it work to just leave the gin pole in your vehicle?

As always, YBYR. Just take care to avoid damage to persons or property.
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pleb222
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Re: raising 26m mast without raising pole

Post by pleb222 »

Thanks for the replies. The pole does make sense, I've never thought of leaving it in the car! That solves that problem. I want to know people's opinions on hank on vs roller furler for the jib. I have the flat top main, so I my thinking is the jib is the better option for me. It feels like I'm better off with the hank on, and rigging a downhaul line through the blocks that were used to the furler line so i can bring it down from the cockpit if needed. I don't see how furling the jib would be much worth, I would probably just take the sails down and motor if in a bind like in a squall.

I keep the boat on the trailer at home. When we go out, I have to set up while my wife takes care of the 3 girls, and anything making the process simpler makes everyone happier!
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Re: raising 26m mast without raising pole

Post by NiceAft »

Back to me again.

I also have a flat top main on my 2005 :macm: . I also have a 150 roller furler Genoa. I am not ready to give that up anytime soon.
When we go out, I have to set up while my wife takes care of the 3 girls, and anything making the process simpler makes everyone happier!
I understand quite well. If there are two vehicles, it makes sense to take the tow beast and the boat and set up by yourself. Your wife and kids can show up an hour later with no fuss. That is if there is a second vehicle.
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Re: raising 26m mast without raising pole

Post by Jimmyt »

pleb222 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:16 pm Thanks for the replies. The pole does make sense, I've never thought of leaving it in the car! That solves that problem. I want to know people's opinions on hank on vs roller furler for the jib. I have the flat top main, so I my thinking is the jib is the better option for me. It feels like I'm better off with the hank on, and rigging a downhaul line through the blocks that were used to the furler line so i can bring it down from the cockpit if needed. I don't see how furling the jib would be much worth, I would probably just take the sails down and motor if in a bind like in a squall.

I keep the boat on the trailer at home. When we go out, I have to set up while my wife takes care of the 3 girls, and anything making the process simpler makes everyone happier!
Ray's suggestion is hard to beat. Little kids (and impatient adults) don't like the setup/teardown process. Better not to share it with them if that's possible.

Optimizing your setup/takedown process will be a continuous process. You want to do both setup and takedown as quickly as possible, without sacrificing safety. In my opinion, using a mast raising system with a brake-winch greatly enhances safety.

Part of my strategy is leaving as many things connected, and as close to where they go, as possible. I use Velcro straps instead of ball bungees because I get better holding with somewhat less fuss. Having someone on the ground to receive the items you remove from the boat (and return items to the boat that get dropped or removed) helps speed the process.

Try making a list of your procedure in order. Follow the list and note where you have to retrace steps, or move back to a spot on the boat to do something you should have done earlier.

You will have to secure the rigging to the mast, even if you omit the Furler. The Furler takes minimally more time to deal with compared to a naked forestay. By comparison, though, once you've pinned the forestay on a Furler, the sail is ready to go. I would estimate that the Furler has potential to be faster rigging/de-rigging than a Hank-on sail. Of course, this depends on how much you can leave in place, connected, etc.

Your trailering distance and storage situation will impact your strategy. If you leave everything on deck with the boat uncovered, you expose it to UV, dirt,dust, leaves, birds, etc. if you are going several hundred miles at 70+ mph, you might want to leave less on-deck, and make everything more secure. I have a 7 mile, or 14 mile trip to the two ramps I typically use. Top speed is 55 mph. Also, my boat is weather-protected. So, I can leave a lot of stuff on deck; and secure it adequately for the tow.

Dock lines are Velcro'd to the stanchions for quick deployment. Furling line stays in the fairleads. Furling main is on-deck. Quick pins are used in lieu of bolts and nuts. Mast raising system is on-deck in position, Genoa is on Furler. Even the Magma grill is securely mounted to the port rail and the lid bungee'd shut.

Still looking for a good approach to handling the spreader. I unpin it from the mast now, but that isn't really optimal. May implement a lifeline drop, or stanchion drop (like BOAT did). I also need a padded bag, or other method of dealing with the Furler drum, to prevent deck scratching and increase speed.

You can be 5-10 minutes faster if you have skilled help. It keeps you from having to walk back and forth the full length of the boat. I typically go with two other people minimum. Setup time solo is around 30-35 minutes. 20-25 minutes with help. Reset to trailer home is in the 40-45 minute range. Yes, it takes a lot longer to de-rig and secure for trailering than it does to setup for sailing.

Just some thoughts. You will evolve your own strategy with experience.

Image

Image

Anchor locker open for drying and front hatch open for venting. I don’t trailer that way. :|
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Re: raising 26m mast without raising pole

Post by Stickinthemud57 »

The decision as to whether to go with roller furling or hank-on foresails has a lot of moving parts - pun intended.

I chose hank-on for the performance angle, BTW

Roller furling
Pros:
-Provides for quick furling and unfurling from the safety and convenience of the cockpit.
-Allows for easy reefing when needed.
Cons:
-Adds weight that complicates mast raising and lowering.
-Does not perform as well as a hanked-on foresail, particularly if reefed.

Hank-on
Pros:
-Less weight aloft when raising and lowering mast
-Better performance than roller furling
-Less expensive set-up
Cons:
-Not as convenient as roller furling. This can be mitigated some by using a deck bag which protects the foresail while allowing it to stay hanked on to the forestay. I would say remove it for any kind of long haul or speeds above 35 mph.
-Can't be reefed like a roller-furled foresail.

So, it looks like the big trade-off is ease of raising and lowering the mast vs ease of unfurling, furling, and reefing the foresail.

I have never had to deal with roller furling on my boat. Perhaps someone who has had both could chime in.
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Re: raising 26m mast without raising pole

Post by beechkingd »

In my 20's when I had a Mac 25, it didn't come with a poll. I just loosened the shrouds as loose as the links would go and walked the mast up. Then had another person connect the for and aft stays. It's a little wobbly as it goes up, but I never had any issues.
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Re: raising 26m mast without raising pole

Post by Stickinthemud57 »

I have seen videos of guys stepping the mast on a 26. At 150 lbs. and at the age of 65 I don't feel so inclined. :|
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Re: raising 26m mast without raising pole

Post by Ixneigh »

I’ve done it using the boom. My pole went missing but I had the winch since I kept them separate.

The whole thing was a PITA. 1/10 do not recommended.
The oem mastraising system is much more complex than it appears. All the lines and wires are a certain length. Without the pole, I had to replicate all those on the boom. The winch line must be exact. If you change the location of the winch on the pole (boom in my case) the line length must change. It can’t be too much. To much line on the drum while the mast is at a low angle reduces your leverage. You wouldn’t think it would matter
that much, but it does. I couldn’t raise the mast with too much Line on the drum. It has to be just enough. I found out all that the hard way.

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Re: raising 26m mast without raising pole

Post by Jimmyt »

Stickinthemud57 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:51 pm I have never had to deal with roller furling on my boat. Perhaps someone who has had both could chime in.
I routinely sail with both. My boat has a furling Genoa. The other three boats I sail have Hank-on head sails. Actually, the Island Packet has both; a furling Genoa and a hank-on staysail.

The Potter 19 starts with a folded sail in a bag in the garage. You have to Hank-on the sail after you get it out of the bag, unfold it, untangle the sheets, and get it on the boat. But, the boat is in the water with the stick up.

The fish boat also is in the water with the stick up. The sail is in a bag under the deck. Sheets are on deck and fed.

The packet staysail is on deck, hanked on, in a sun-cover. Remove the cover and go sailing.

It all depends on how much you can leave in place, or near where it needs to go. The furler has the sail and sheets on the forestay. Raise the mast, pin the forestay, feed the sheets, done.

As we have discussed before, hank-on is virtually fool proof. A furler can hang up. When it’s working properly, a furler will keep you off the foredeck. The reefed Genoa won’t have the shape of a smaller jib that’s hanked on. If you’re going to make head sail changes, hanked on might be the way to go.

If I went hanked on, I’d probably keep my sheets on deck and fed; using some type of soft attachment to the jib. Flaking the jib properly would allow hanking it fairly quickly for setup. Flaking it nicely on deck might be a bit of a challenge if you have a large headsail.

As I said, my furling line stays routed, but my sheets do not. I raise my mast, pin my forestay, route my sheets, and my headsail is ready to go. No getting a sail bag, no unrolling a flaked sail, etc.

My opinion is, the furler is quicker for a big headsail when trailer sailing. The more you can leave rigged the faster it gets.

It really depends on your specific procedure and setup, though. There are folks that spend 2 hours getting the boat ready to sail compared to my 25 minutes…. If you’re spending that much time, a hanked headsail might not be much of a time penalty.
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Re: raising 26m mast without raising pole

Post by Stickinthemud57 »

Great perspective and info.

Another consideration might be deck space while at anchor. When my wife and I camp out, the foredeck doesn't get much use unless I rig up the hammock. With a family of five, that real estate may be better kept clear. With roller furling, easy. With a hanked-on sail, not so much.

The advantages of roller furling are pretty clear. I'm wondering if anyone could compare and contrast the difficulty of raising the mast with the two options (RF vs HO) on the same boat.
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Re: raising 26m mast without raising pole

Post by Jimmyt »

Stickinthemud57 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:51 am Great perspective and info.

Another consideration might be deck space while at anchor. When my wife and I camp out, the foredeck doesn't get much use unless I rig up the hammock. With a family of five, that real estate may be better kept clear. With roller furling, easy. With a hanked-on sail, not so much.

The advantages of roller furling are pretty clear. I'm wondering if anyone could compare and contrast the difficulty of raising the mast with the two options (RF vs HO) on the same boat.
Excellent point.

No question that raising the mast is easier with a naked forestay. The 150 furled with drum is a giant Anaconda that has to be wrestled on the way up. Tomfoolery had a gin pole rig on his X, that he attached his drum to and it managed the furled sail perfectly on the way up. That setup would result in almost identical times for mast raising and pinning the forestay - with a slight advantage to pinning a bare forestay with less weight. To date, I haven't taken time to solve that problem; electing to just wrestle the snake. :(

Since I rarely rig alone, my ground person assists with pinning and it's not bad at all.

For the mast raising part ONLY, it will be minimally quicker with a bare forestay - at least the way I do it. If I could figure out a similar method to Tomfoolery's approach, the time difference would be very small - with the bare forestay having the advantage. As is, bare forestay would be quicker for mast raising ONLY. I still have the opinion that overall setup is faster with a furled sail - compared to a large flaked sail, rolled, in a sailbag, stored in the v-berth. But, this is based on the way I do things, and the headsail that I have, so it may not apply to anybody else. I'm a card carrying moron, so doubt anyone does the crazy stuff I do. :wink:

One specific point is the Mast Raising System with brake winch. This was designed for the 26M boat, but has been utilized and copied to be used on numerous other macgregor boats and even boats from other manufacturers. I use it, and my thoughts and opinions are based on using the MRS. I have one hand to crank with, and one hand to wrestle the snake (or hold the kite string if a bare forestay is used). My baby stays are attached to the mast, similar to the X, and I altered the stay attachment point to correct the geometry. So my baby stays manage the mast during raising; allowing very little angular displacement. If anyone is not using a MRS like mine, my opinion would be utterly useless (my wife says all of my opinions fall into that category). 8)
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