Young toddlers on board

[ubersonic]

I have read many posts, and wanted to make sure I understand a gist of opinions re: the best boat option for my small kids (ages 2 and 4): X, M or ?Catalina/other.

I'm basing this on safety, and size of cockpit/angle of heel under sail seem appropriate to address.

But the risk of grounding, and time it takes to outrun weather back to shelter are important. Time for maintenence and mods will be limited for a bit.

We'll be motoring only initially, some VERY limited light weather sailing and not include friends for some time (when the kids can actually crew we'll be four adults, four kids with one other couple). Daysailing only for a number more years.

So can you blame me for being attracted to the Mac's? Seem pretty ideal for the young family vs. my friends with cat 270, 30 or 34's. Trailering isn't all that important actually, but a plus. We have relatively cheap moorage and could haul out for winter months during ski seaseon!

The Mac high-freeboard, relatively flatter sailing of Catalina > Mac X > Mac M, relative cockpit size are all important overall.

Appreciate this great board's thoughts.

[Jeff S]

I have an almost 2 year old on board. The Mac will heel early, the trick is reefing- having mid reef points installed to reduce some heel. The water ballast seems to need a bit of heel to do its work and the high freeboard and cockpit make the heel feel more than it shows on my inclinometer.

If you are planning motoring, then light daysailing the Mac is a great boat with kids (or without). In fact you won't be able to beat it in a sailboat for motoring- you can motor along slowly or get somewhere in a hurry. For strong winds, chop, waves the Mac will survive most reasonable conditions (I had the bow submarining through 4-6' chop!) but won't be as good as a keelboat.

The kids love to hang out in the front hatch and enjoy the view. I have a cooler at the helm seat (seat is cut out) so no worries about going through there. I have to watch her trying to stand up on the cockpit seats. The wife does a great job with her, or my 10 year old- someone always has to be with the 2 year old. My kids favorite thing to do is beach the boat, hop off and play.

The X cockpit (can't speak for the M) is roomy enough for my family of 5 to be in the cockpit and still control the boat. Now that I have replaced my steering cable (and 22" wheel ) my kids (10/8 year old) enjoy taking the helm while I work the sheets.

As far as modification times go if you don't have time either buy a new boat with the mods you want or find a used boat that has mods you want. Browsing this board is a good way to see what types of mods you might like. Most Macs have had a number of mods to them. (Check the trailer condition also- even if you don't plan to use it that much- it can be expensive to repair/replace).

Really the only area it falls short in your questions is heel- but that is manageable in most conditions. I was just out in 20 gust to 29knot winds a few weeks ago- heel between 20-30 degrees. Not bad for me, but would have been a bit much for the 2 year old. She doesn't like to sit still, the wife would have had to chase her with that heel angle.

Also- risk of grounding- pretty tough to ground a Mac. If you are sailing in areas of shallow waters- a great boat. I have friends who sail around in constant fear of grounding.

Based on the conditions you plan to use the boat- the Mac is an excellent choice IMHO. I just took out another family with 2 kids (4 adults- 5 kids)- 8 knots of wind. Wouldn't take that load (esp. kids) in big winds. Sailed a few hours, beached the boat on a secluded area- BBQ'd some chow and listened to Jimmy Buffet while kids ran up and down the beach playing- great fun.

Jeff S

[Moe]

There were various opinions about capacity in this thread:

How Many Guests?

You can see how high the weight of passengers (and fuel) in the cockpit are carried, and how high the ballast is relative to a keelboat.

The Mac is pretty tender. I frequently had it to 20-25 degrees and beyond in fairly light winds our first time out.

The Mac lifelines are low and the deck not substantial enough to raise them much, if any. The available nets I've seen are too tall for them, and even if you made custom ones, I think they'd be a pain trying to take down to board over the gunwales at the dock.

I don't mean to offend any parents here, but it is my OPINION that if you're going to have toddlers aboard, either motor with the sails down, keep them below in the cabin when sailing (and both parents are distracted by crewing), or bring along a dedicated grandparent or friend to watch them. And that opinion holds even for a Cat 34, which is more expensive to maintain, and limited to deeper water.

--
Moe

[Andy26M]

I have a 26M, and I think a key point when thinking of little kids is the companionway. On the 26X, the opening is taller and the entrance is basically at the level of the cockpit sole - so it is a fairly short step down into the cabin. On the 26M, there is a seat/traveler across the front of the cockpit, so the companionway is shorter and higher up, meaning that there is a few more steep feet to descend into the cabin.

Imho, the 26M hatch/ladder setup is far more likely to be a trip hazard area than the 26X's. Furthermore, from a logistics standpoint: whereas relatively small kids can negotiate in and out of the 26X cabin safely, you'd want to hand them in and out of the 26M cabin - a fall from the ladder could ruin the day for sure.

I find it hard enough to get in and out of the cabin myself, trying it with a kid in hand would be impossible. I've not thought about this before, but if a friend wanted to go out with me and bring a toddler, I think I'd either politely decline, or make a motor trip only.

Just my 2 cents.

- AndyS

[kmclemore]

...I don't mean to offend any parents here, but it is my OPINION that if you're going to have toddlers aboard, either motor with the sails down, keep them below in the cabin when sailing (and both parents are distracted by crewing), or bring along a dedicated grandparent or friend to watch them. ...

....someone always has to be with the 2 year old....

I totally agree. Small kids are just TOO unpredictable, and can quickly get 'round the most careful precautions, no matter how hard you try to prevent danger. Don't take the risk - IMHO you absolutley must have a dedicated person (or preferably two) to keep constant watch over such precious cargo. The risk of failure and the potential for a lifetime of regrets is simply too costly.

[ubersonic]

1. PFD at all times (our 2 year old has no problem with his on 2 hour sea kayaking at Scappoose Bay)

2. Harness when in the cockpit at all times

3. Secure the car seat below (or in cockpit?) for times Mom AND Dad needed urgently for security despite kids protests!

4. Motoring if two couples with kids (4 adults/4 kids), MAYBE light sailing or foresail only on an X for example.

I think the X sounds better for stability when docked and maybe underway, foresail sailing only, cockpit size/no traveler, cabin layout/steps. But I've not sailed in either!

[Jeff S]

1. PFD at all times ...2. Harness when in the cockpit at all times

Yes- I forgot to mention these critical items, especially #1. I also have a harness that I can use for her. She is never unnattended. The 10 year old only watches her if I need the first mate for something momentarily. Usually the 10 and 8 year old alternate helping with the sailing duties and the other gets a break to go to the front hatch or just sit and enjoy the view. ( or try to find the chips Mom packed).

Also failed to mention- with a full load (4 adults and 5 kids of various ages) we always use ballast even though it is calm. I found this load of people is about the maximum with which I am comfortable in less than 12 knots of wind. Docking and maneuvering requires planning ahead- having kids go down below with the first mates taking charge of that. I guess it also depends on the personalities of the kids- I have seen some kids that I wouldn't take on my boat with any amount of supervision who would be a constant distraction to crewing a boat.

The dock- it depends- I can back up my boat to our local dock/slip and we step down into the stern and hand the kids over- no lifelines there- very easy.

I have taken the 10 and 8 year old out while I "singlehanded" although they were helping me. In these cases I always wear my inflatable PFD and have a tether that I use so I don't get disconnected from the boat on accident. I will have to do this until I get the 10 year old up to speed to handle the boat herself- but that may be awhile.

In reality the biggest problem- my wife getting tired of watching the little one while I have all the fun sailing with my other daughters.

Jeff S

[Greg]

Jeff,
Check with your local Power Squadron for Boatsmart classes or the US Coast Guard Auxilliary for Boat Safe classes for anyone who will be at the helm, including your 10 year old.
Greg

[edurbin]

Yep, some good points already offered here. We have a 2 year old. For us the 26M works pretty good. The open cabin space is hard to beat, and, there aren't many sharp edges to fall against. So, when our toddler is downstairs, she can be pretty much unattended and have free reign of the rear berth, cabin and forward berth. In my opinion, the extra ladder step to get in the cabin helps here. If she is coming up on deck, we do have time to react.

Sailing with a toddler - not very often. Sometimes she will have a sleep in the afternoon.....yipee......sails up ! Just don't heel so much that she falls out of the Vberth.

Main issue is that mum is on full alert when junior is aboard. So, we usually motor to somewhere nice and then dad takes junior ashore for a while. Currently we're working hard to get junior swimming sufficiently to stay afloat.

We did put extra grab wires around the cockpit area to lessen the chances of child overboard. But its still a case of full alert when she's upstairs.

Motoring home fast - sometimes you need to. Mum and junior just had enough. Hard to beat a Mac.

Craig

[Ken Smith]

I've had netting around my boat for 4 years , allows the kids to be on the seat without much worries. The harness is what will keep total control of the kids. I also made a cabin hatch that is 3/4 of the way up to prevent falling into the cabin of the boat. teaching your kids when they are young is the best time because you can teach them the right way. Don't miss out on some of the most connected time you will have with your kids.
ken

[Randy Smith]

I have raised three kids on my 26X. In Oregon it is the law they wear PFDs and I would make them anyway. I only sail with the kids in 5-10's and do mostly motor, thank God two are teens now...I still don't relax as much with them aboard as I have to be even more aware and dilligent......they are precious as mentioned and take special planning and care of conditions and activities. The life of boating needs to be taught to them and I would not dream of not including them. Kids and boats do go together, we all just have to be on extra duty...I do like the grandma idea, I take another older kid with us if at all possible, a Nanny so to speak........has worked great. Randy

[ubersonic]

So would anyone fault me for saying I'm leaning towards the X simply because IF we choose to sail with kids in light winds, on the X using just the foresail works wonderfully. While the M seems to require the mainsail, and thus more heeling?

[Jeff S]

I can't speak for the M. My X sails fine with the Jib only in stronger winds. In light winds the jib only isn't enough sail to move the boat much. In heavy winds you probably wouldn't want to have the toddler on board anyway. I just bought a Genny and haven't tried that by itself yet, it may work ok- it would heel less than with the main. You would have to watch lee helm in either case.

Jeff S

[DLT]

I've sailed my with jib alone...

I think you'll want to base your decision on something other than sailing performance...

[Rolf]

The X can be sailed safely even in heavy winds genoa only-- just make sure to avoid too broad a reach... The x is excellent for small kids because you can keep them down below and keep an easy eye on them even from the helms seat. My only concern used to be them horsing around and breaking the table or forward dinette seat back. No problem anymore, I just keep it down in berth mode and the interior becomes practically indestructible.
Rolf