MacGregorSailors.com

Today I sailed with both the mainsail and Genoa up for the first time. While tacking the Genoa got caught on the shrouds a couple of times. I had to go up to free it. It caught on the plastic pieces on the Genoa leech.

What am I doing wrong?

Also, I had trouble pulling the Genoa in tight. It seemed to billow out too much. Any suggestions?

Thanks,

PeteC

Did you route the genoa sheet outside of all the shrouds? Where is the block located? I assume you are using a standup block on the back rails and then leading the sheet up to the winch?

If the genoa billows out above the sheet, maybe moving the lead block forward a bit will help. I've only used my genoa a few times as it is really not the right sail for where I sail, but I thoguht at least I would get the ball rolling.

Plus I'm trying to get the word "Engineer" disassociated with my name.

Exactly what is the plastic piece that is getting fouled? At what stage are you getting caught, on the release of the old sheet, or sheeting in on the new tack?

The geny will be more likely to catch on the shrouds if there is too much friction on the released (lazy) sheet. it is very important to make sure the lazy sheet can run free during the tack. You will also have problems if you try to sheet in the sail before the boat has turned through head to wind far enough to clear the sail through the foretriangle completely. When releasing the lazy sheet it is also important to make sure you don't wait too long. If you wait until the geny is completely backwinded, it forces the leetch to be dragged across all your shrouds and your mast. This is very hard on the sail, and makes it more likely to foul. The release should be timed so that the front of the sail is starting to backwind, but before the whole sail plasters itself against the rigging.

If the plastic piece in question, (I'm assuming it is a leetchline cleat or something?) is getting fouled consistently, you should consider getting rid of the offending piece, or at least stiching a little velcro flap to cover it. If a gust hits and the leetch is caught, it could easily rip your sail.

As for the billowing genoa, it is possible that the problem lies with the lead position. If it is an old sail, it is also possible that the sail is simply stretched and "bagged out". If that is the case, just get it recut.

If you can post pics we can tell more.

These are small pieces, maybe 1 x 3/4 x 1/2", hard plastic, and have slots on the long axis which allow them to be clipped around the hem of the leech. I believe (at least I've been told) they are used in combination with a line which runs inside the hem of the leech, to fine tune sail shape by adjusting leech tension.

BTW, I thought the correct terminology was "plastic thingy", or maybe "plastic hooya", but "leechline cleat" sounds way better.

I've had the same problem with mine. If you wait just a little too long to release the sheet, the genny will backwind, and it then must slide over the shrouds on the "old" leeward side on its way between the mast and forestay to the "new" leewad side. Occasionally one of the thingies will hang up on the shroud as the leech slides over it. It doesn't happen every time, but it is self perpetuating as every time the thingie gets hung up, it spreads the slot a little wider, so the next time it is more likely to get hung up.

Adjusting the sheet fairleads does not help. The problem is, the Mac is light, doesn't carry much momentum, and particularly with the genny doesn't tack well through tight angles; my guess is that 110-115 degrees is about the best I ever get. In light winds, if you release too early, you don't have sufficient momentum to carry you through the tack. So in turn, I sometimes allow the genny to backwind slightly to assist in pulling the bow through the wind to the new tack.

My solution was to purchase those white plastic shroud covers, on the theory that the thingie won't get caught on the much fatter section of the cover. I say "purchase", because I bought them last fall and have not gotten around to installing them yet.

The covers are quite quite stiff at low temperatures. I struggled with them for several hours in low fifty degree temps, ripping my hands to shreds and getting nowhere on the actual installation. I toyed with the idea of a hair dryer to soften them up a little, but had no help, the job would require three hands, and I was concerned about putzing with a hair dryer while the boat was in the water. I gave up and elected to wait for warmer weather.

Looks the weather may finally arrive this week. It's on my list.

Try this,
(BTW, this may make no sense to Schock Therapy. It's one of those things about the X that is not common on other boats.

I've threatened to ripp the forward stanchions off my own deck more than once. They are placed just about exactly where they can cause the most problems, when tacking.

Before you tack, make both sheets ready, but leave plenty of slack on what will become the working sheet, after the tack.

Take your working sheet (before the tack) in hand, but have a couple turns around the winch in it.

Start your tack and hold the working sheet until it backwinds. This will help pull the bow through the eye of the wind. (this is the MacX thing I was speaking of)

Let the boat come around about 100 degrees and center the helm.
(BTW, you're just turning the boat through the eye of the wind. Go easy on the rudders. Most people seem to go hard over with the steering wheel and end up stalling the boat, 'cause the rudders are turned too far over, when they first start sailing the MacX)

I say 100 degrees, because I usually fall off a little, to gain some speed, right before the tack.

Back to the sheets;
As I said, let the genoa backwind, before you cast off the working sheet. When you do cast it off, make sure (as Schock Therapy said) it runs completely free. You can't be standing on it, or have a crew member sitting on part of it It has to be able to run.

The clew of the genoa should fly across the deck and out toward the bow on the lee side, at this moment and not catch on anything.

Now haul in the new working sheet. Don't haul in the new working sheet too fast or too soon. If you do, eight times out of ten, the clew of the genny will catch on the shrouds or lifelines.

You should have no large knots where the sheets tie to the clew of the sail. Make this connection as smooth and rounded as possible.

Can't get the sheet in tight enough? Are you using the winch? That's what it's for.

If the sail seems baggy, even after winching in the sheet 'till the leech is almost touching the shroud, there are some other considerations.

Roller furling or not??????

If the genoa is the furling type, I've seen many that didn't have enough luff tension. Make sure the genoa is at full hoist first. Now, there should be enough room at the bottom of the sail to cinch up the tack line some, so there is some luff tension. You don't want tension wrinkles along of the luff of the sail however, so don't set the tack line too tight.

If you are dealing with a none furling sail, try hoisting the sail, just a little tighter than you usually do, by some means.

If the sail still seems too baggy, look at the general tightness of the rig. Does the forestay arch off to the lee a lot? It should be fairly straight in both a furling, or hank on sail. If not, you may need to adjust your rig so there is a little more tension on the forestay. Make sure the backstay has some tension on it under sail. Look at the shrouds, particularly the uppers. When on a tack, are the lee shrouds limp??? Is this the case on either tack? If so, the headsl will tend to be pretty baggy.

Lastly, the sail itself could be showing it's years and is stretched to the point that it's near impossible to flatten it. These sails are not made from any sort of high tech cloth and they do tend to be pretty stretchy. The only cure here is a new sail.
SK

If the sail still seems too baggy, look at the general tightness of the rig. Does the forestay arch off to the lee a lot?

I agree, headstay sag is another possible issue, and it will be a result of the overall rig being too loose.

If the genoa is the furling type, I've seen many that didn't have enough luff tension. Make sure the genoa is at full hoist first. Now, there should be enough room at the bottom of the sail to cinch up the tack line some, so there is some luff tension. You don't want tension wrinkles along of the luff of the sail however, so don't set the tack line too tight.


Halyard tension will control draft position, but it is very unlikely to effect the fullness of the sail to any significant degree.

Lastly, the sail itself could be showing it's years and is stretched to the point that it's near impossible to flatten it. These sails are not made from any sort of high tech cloth and they do tend to be pretty stretchy. The only cure here is a new sail.


Don't be too quick to write off a stretched sail. A good sailmaker can easily flatten a sail out with a quick recut. Of course weather or not it is worth spending the money on the old sail depends on the overall condition of it. If you do end up buying a new sail, you should consider getting your local sailmaker to build you one rather than buying an off-the-shelf sail from Macgregor. That way you can choose from a range of higher quality cloths; there are some very good low-stretch dacrons that will hold their shape much better than the cheapest stuff.

Schock wrote--------------------------------------------------------
Halyard tension will control draft position, but it is very unlikely to effect the fullness of the sail to any significant degree.


Don't be too quick to write off a stretched sail. A good sailmaker can easily flatten a sail out with a quick recut. Of course weather or not it is worth spending the money on the old sail depends on the overall condition of it. If you do end up buying a new sail, you should consider getting your local sailmaker to build you one rather than buying an off-the-shelf sail from Macgregor. That way you can choose from a range of higher quality cloths; there are some very good low-stretch dacrons that will hold their shape much better than the cheapest stuff.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the first point you, of course, are correct.
Schock,
Have I mentioned that I enjoy having someone with your experience on this forum? Thanks for being here.

In my mind (muddled as it is) I was thinking by moving draft forward it would help flatten the back 1/3 of the sail????? Guess not.
Anyway, I see a lot of the RF headsls on X boats that just don't have any tension on the luff. This may be because most have the CDI furler and the CDI furler manual makes a strong point to not over tighten the luff of the sail. Then, I think the average guy ends up not putting enough tension on it.

Talk about your Stretchy sails, when I hoist my genny (I remove the sail when not in use, something most guys with furlers probably don't do), it is a good 18 inches from the tack of the sail to where the tack line would tie off at full hoist. With little effort I can pull the tack of the sail within about 4 inches of this fitting. That's over a foot of easy stretch, over the luff of the sail. I think these sails are made with some Spandex in them

On your second point, yes, again you are correct. But better to write off this particular sail though, for reasons you mention in your own statement. These sails aren't really worth taking to a sail loft for re-cutting. You would now have two prices in what was a cheap sail to begin with.
I think I would invest in something other then a new factory sail also. The new MacX sail will be made of the same material as the old one and be just as stretchy. (Although, I have bought a new X factory mainsl. 'Course I got it for under $325, tax and all, @ that price I can throw away a sail every year)

Now, if you could do this yourself and not spend the money, it might be worth it. I've been learning some of this sail sewing and massaging stuff. I don't feel too bad practicing on the MacX sails and the work I did on my mainsl (with the help of someone with a good bit of experience) came out great and vastly improved the nature of the sail.
I did the following to the sail, btw:

converted to loose foot with an outhaul slide
added a reef point 30 inches above the foot.
(The single factory reef takes away 40% of the mainsl area. too much for some conditions, but no reef at all leaves too much main up in some conditions also. This reef point is almost perfect and I rarely use the factory reef now, but still do when the wind really gets up there.)
added a cunningham cringle
added full battens (Great )
added slugs

For my next trick, I'm thinking about building a drifter. Hope I can do one from the ground up. I'm sure it will be different from working on one that already looks like something.

Anyway, thanks again for helping to straighten us all out on this. You are a real asset to this forum.
SK

Now, if you could do this yourself and not spend the money, it might be worth it. I've been learning some of this sail sewing and massaging stuff.

I know people who have done this just for fun. If you have a small independant sail loft in your area, you can most likely get a basic sail designed and the panels cut on their plotter, and then you can do the labor intensive stuff like taping, sewing and finishing. Keep in mind that the reinforced corners will be murder on your sewing machine, and you will probably have to stitch the ring webbing by hand. If you are keen, it is a good learning experience. Personally, I have far better things to do with my time, like sailing!

(Although, I have bought a new X factory mainsl. 'Course I got it for under $325, tax and all, @ that price I can throw away a sail every year)


Yeah, you get what you pay for! They are probably made in china by some 10 year old kid! I'll wager they aren't too concerned about decent shape! In my opinion you are better off investing some money into a decent sail that you will be happy with for many years to come. My boat came with 12 bags of sails, and many of them are 20 years old. Amazingly some of them have pretty decent shape for old Dacron sails! (I did have to buy a used Kevlar racing geny, because the previous owner stored the kevlar#1 on furling without UV guard )