Renewable Fuels - Not necessarily free.

[Frank C]

Check out this University project! Notwithstanding Tom R's energetic efforts toward alternative energy, seems to me that this one spells realistic and commercially achievable hope for the future of personal transportation.

[Tom Root]

Very interesting, and viable for those who cannot or will not do what I am attempting. It appears it is only in the "planning stages" I, on the other hand am in the "doing stages"


.....let's see, gotta make me an Algae farm now.....hmmm

[Mark Prouty]

However, with biodiesel, since the same engines can run on conventional petroleum diesel, manufacturers can comfortably produce diesel vehicles before biodiesel is available on a wide scale. As biodiesel production continues to ramp up, it can just go into the same fuel distribution infrastructure, just replacing petroleum diesel. Not only does this eliminate the chicken-and-egg problem, making biodiesel a much more feasible alternative than fuel cells, but also eliminates the huge cost of revamping the nationwide fuel distribution infrastructure.

It kind of makes me think. HELLO, why aren't we doing this! Creating a hydrogen storage and distribution system seems much more difficult a problem than ramping up for biodiesel.

Maybe I should be thinking of getting myself a diesel truck to pull that Mac with! With the price of gasoline, we're already thinking of shorter trips towing the boat behind the Tahoe.

Questions:
What about emmisions from this? Are carbon monoxide greenhouse gasses a potential problem?

I know there are claims that diesel burns cleaner than gasoline but I remember how terrible Mexico City was for breathing with all their diesel busses.

Is an outboard diesel motor practical? Don't diesels weigh considerably more for the same horsepower output?

Is Tom really going to make an algae farm? You know it is this kind of inventive nature that has made this country great.

[Tom Root]

Mark, my research has led me to determine that my setup with WVO, is friendlier to our planet than straight diesel, or formulated gas, even LPG possibly?

As far as most resources divulge, burning this stuff, completes the carbon loop, and emissions are reduced radically! There are several reasons California for example EXCLUDES diesels from it's smog testing facilities. It mostly has to do with the fact that there are a plethora of problems calibrating, and properly achieving a fair and balanced test result. In testing models in theory, doesn't pan out in the final analysis in the field. They were considering using "SNAP" tests, in that they would sample and record emissions at a given RPM, under load to do do evaluations, but that was disputed by engineers who could proove there was a way to "trick" the test, and it would not be a true reading!

At least this is how I understand it! WVO, on the other hand seems to have real evidence of being kinder to the environment. I would love for our country to rely less heavily on the internal combustion engine, but alas, look at what is being discussed IE: Fuel cells/Electric and some other alternatives, and what it comes back to, is the internal combustion engine/hybrid combo, as the only mass produced vehicle so far.

Manufacturers have overturned the California laws of a certain percentage of their cars sold as Zero emission vehicles sold...... already! Brilliant minds, along with advancing emerging technologies need to develope very soon, alternatives, as some sources that I have read here on the internet, have painted a bleak picture for fossil fuels, and their continued availablity? Many theories have existed on this issue for decades, and besides those chicken little types, who claim the sky is falling, we do have to be aware of our air quality, if nothing else! Hopefully, the US will become a leader in providing the world with a viable alternative, since we are the biggest energy consumers on the globe, per capita!

I can speak first hand, having lived in SoCal since 1978, and truly saw a change in photo-suspended particulates, and smelled the air difference when coming back from overseas tours,(USMC) there IS a difference since then! And one simply has to drive a few miles from San Diego, to Tijuana, on a hot day, and feel the difference! BTW, those of you in Europe can probably attest to an enormous upturn in diesel vehicle sales recently, as petrol is as high as $5.70, per gallon, as some reveal!

Yes, I'd love to be on the cutting edge somehow making a difference environmentally!!! Aerospace is the pits,(911 industry victim, that's life!) feast or famine industry, certainly. My Forte' is getting things done, in production, and literally worked for Rocket Scientists, and built and tested expeditiously, anything that came off the drawing board! So yes, I'd truly consider this venture!

Any investors, or partners out there?

Also,I hope no one minds me meandering off sailing, if you do, I WILL refrain! But I sure would like a diesel outboard, the only one I have ever seen was a small, less than 10 HP, from what I remember?

[Chip Hindes]

Let's try to put some of these things in proper perspective.

Keeping the math simple:

The average person drives their vehicle 10,000 miles per year.

Let's say, for the sake of the discussion, your Mac tow vehicle averages an abysmal 15mpg. That's 667 gallons per year.

I heard on the radio the day before yesterday, the average increase in gasoline prices for this year over the same time last year is fifty cents per gallon. I know you guys in CA are paying more than the average, and your increase from last year may be more as well (as it also is in NY) but lets try to keep it simple.

So, 667 gallons per year at $2.10 (a little above the current national average) is $1400 per year, but the difference due to the increased gas prices from last year is only $333 per year. Compared to the increase, you're probably paying three or for times that per year for insurance, and depreciation on a late model vehicle is well over ten times that amount.

So the increase in the cost of gasoline is a relatively small fraction of the the total cost of ownership of your tow vehicle. If it's really stupid to be driving around in a huge gas hog of a tow vehicle that only gets 15mpg this year, it was only marginally less stupid to be driving that same vehicle last year.

Next week I'll be leaving to tow the Mac to FL and and eventually back again, with my 5.4 Expedition. 3000 mi round trip, rough total. It'll cost me a little over $400 for gas, just over $100 more than it did to make the same trip last year. Certainly not peanuts, but also not even close to making say "forget it, I'm staying home this year".

Now, as for trading your gasoline hog in for a diesel:

Let's say your proposed diesel gets double the mileage of the equivalent gasoline engine vehicle. It may be a little better or a little worse, but again, let's keep it simple. Assuiming the cost per gallon is roughly equivalent, you'll be saving $700-800 per year. Significant? Maybe to you, but not so much in my book. Some months ago in a similar exercise, I checked the difference in cost between a gasoline Dodge pickup and the same truck with the Cummins turbodiesel. The 5.7 gas Hemi is standard, you can get the gas V10 for $600 extra, but the diesel's a whopping $5000 extra. It's going to take 5-7 years to pay for itself. This doesn't take into account any difference in trade in value, nor the difference in maintenance and repairs. Other brands may not show as large a difference between gasoline and diesel; I haven't checked.

If you only drive your tow vehicle when you're towing the Mac, with this one it'll take more than the life of the vehicle to pay for it.

All this, plus you have to put up with a diesel. In the north, there's also the problem of winter starting, attenuated somewhat by modern technology but still not completly solved. An Audi mechanic acquaintance of mine carried a charcoal hibachi in the trunk of his Audi diesel for the times when he wasn't close enough to a power point to plug in his block heater. That included, BTW, the Audi dealership employee parking lot.

Right now, I don't see diesel as the being worth the money or effort.

[Frank C]

. . . But I sure would like a diesel outboard, the only one I have ever seen was a small, less than 10 HP, from what I remember?

Not exactly. Yanmar's new 36 hp (@ 4500 rpms) diesel weighs just 256# so it's probably a good fit on the Mac. Bet it's pretty loud at 4500, though it should be able to push a steeper pitch prop ... might push a Mac to higher speed at lower revs. They use an aluminum, one-piece block/head casting with steel liner. Their 27 hp weighs only ~200#.

Yanmar's product page

Aussie Dealer's page

[Mark Prouty]

Some months ago in a similar exercise, I checked the difference in cost between a gasoline Dodge pickup and the same truck with the Cummins turbodiesel. The 5.7 gas Hemi is standard, you can get the gas V10 for $600 extra, but the diesel's a whopping $5000 extra.

Woa! How do they justify that.

Next week I'll be leaving to tow the Mac to FL and and eventually back again, with my 5.4 Expedition. 3000 mi round trip, rough total.

Have a great trip. My boat is still in the shop for transom repairs. The guy keeps stringing me along. Promises to get it in this week. I've only been out in it once and never under sail.

[Tom Root]

Chip, again you bring up relevant points to be considered, but I have driven my truck back in Pennsylvania, during bitter winter weather, and had little problems with it starting. Glow plugs~ brand and condition are what helps here! And I have started in sub-zero temps without utilizing the block heater. I am trying to resource a D.C. block heater/thermostat combo, for increased piece of mind. Along with an additional battery bank, this should work! The way I try and do things is to solve a problem before it gets to be a bigger one, and has worked for me!

Yes, Diesels are in fact higher priced, and maintenance intensive, and this is my first one, but it has served me well, but I keep vehicles longer than most, so it's 14 years with me, have averaged out just fine. I now intend to keep it on the road as long as possible, barring any major problems, I will probably still own it 14 years from now! I have owned a Dodge 1/2 Ton, and a Chevy 1 Ton dually also through the years, and would pick those brands also....if they were diesel, of course!

What I have discovered, is that a turbo diesel cannot be beat in sheer power and durability, and have towed 20,000 lbs gross (5th wheel, 3 axle 40') for tens of thousands of trouble free miles, and over many 7 percent grades!

Does everyone do this, or need this....absolutely not, but it sure was nice to have a vehicle that could handle it, given these circumstances.

And with any Mac made, it's like there is NOTHING behind me, I have to look in the rear view mirror to remind me it is still back there!

BTW, 22 MPG has been achieved by some, my best has been about 20MPG, and worst with that 20K gross in tow, has been about 12 MPG.

I really do look forward to your input, it is reasonable to understand why someone would not want a diesel....it's just an option, one of many in life....right?

[Frank C]

For the short term. I'm not trading in my GMC gas pickup, even though it only gets 13 mpg around town. Even here in CA, the equivalent GMC diesel is bigger and heavier as a daily driver. Chip's points are all well taken - must agree (for once )!

OTOH, the longer term issues are much more important. As observed above, hybrid-electrics solve nothing, they simply time-shift the consumption and pollution of current fuels. Increasingly limited fossil fuels MUST become ever-more expensive. If one forecasts that oil will triple or quadruple in cost over the coming 15 to 20 years, then a renewable fuel supply must be a major priority (nationally and internationally), since an increasing share of productivity will shift to providing fuel resources, at the expense of other necessities like health care, defense, and food stocks.

That's why university research projects, such as cited above, are so important. As Mark observed, there's a very nice synergy between current infrastructure and renewable bio-diesel. In the end, that synergy between current infrastructure and renewable bio-diesel may offer our most practical redemption from the Mid-East oil empires. Since a vast segment of our current corporate assets are already invested in petro-distribution, and because those same corporations already control vast tracts of wasteland, we can only hope that their capitalistic motivations impel us toward energy independence.

The fact that the University article left obvious questions unanswered leaves me a little skeptical though.

1. One big question ... what about NIMBY? How badly will these algae farms smell (including their sewage or ag-waste feedstocks) and pollute?
2. How badly would air quality suffer from a major shift (50%?) to diesel transportation?

If petroleum costs continue upward though, perhaps it's moot ...

[Billy]

Chip, your numbers are close but not completely true. I did the same exercise a few years ago when I purchased a V10 instead of the diesel. Other than cost, I considered noise, cleanliness (especially in towing my Mac), and fuel availiability. The V10 has over 400 lbs. of torque and 300 hp so power wasn't a real consideration. I calculated it would take approximately 125,000 miles before reaching break even on the cost difference of the diesel.

Now to play the devil's advocate. Most people do not buy a new vehicle as the ultimate end user and usually trade within 3-5 years. The diesel on trade/resale will bring about $3000 more than the gas. So realistically, if you trade vehicles, the end cost of intial purchase is only about $1400. If someone really wants to consider a diesel, it may be worthwhile after all. Just have to look at the big picture.

[BobCardz]

All this talk of V10's Hemi's and Cummings diesels makes me want to invest in Oil. Why not but buy an old Truck with a 302 - 360 in it (depending on brand).. then spend the saved money on a nice Jetta diesel or Hybrid. The money you save commuting to work will probably pay for the car and the truck.

Or is it one of those over compensation things to excuse you from towing the least expensive 26ft sailboat on the planet.

[Billy]

Bob, for me it's actually owning just 1 vehicle capable of doing all the jobs I need it to do, when I need it. Being able to write off the entire vehicle the first year helps in the decision making too.

[BobCardz]

Even my son-in-law had to go out and by a Hemi.

Last year my main tow vehichle was a retired cop car. (about 20k pulling 3500+ lbs on its back. It has 200K on it and still humming like a band new motor.

[Chip Hindes]

Chip, your numbers are close but not completely true.

Well, of course they're not and I admitted that up front. I mentioned I was just trying to keep it simple; in doing so I exagerrated the benefits of the diesel. Even with exagerrated benefits, it still looks pretty bad.

So you're right. Your calculations make the diesel look way worse than mine.

Your devil's advocate position reinforces my point still further. If you are going to complicate things by using the trade in difference, you also must add in the increased maintenance cost of the diesel. Even if you don't, but trade it in after 3-5 years as you state, that $1500 difference in initial cost minus trade in will not be realized in fuel savings over the short 3-5 years you own it.

The only way the diesel makes economic sense is if you drive it "forever" as Tom does, or at least (as you correctly calculated) 120,000 miles, at which point trade in value is a moot point. And BTW, that's only break even. If you actually want to save money, you have to drive it way longer than the break even point.

People have somehow gotten the erroneous idea that diesels are "clean". Because of the chemical composition of diesel fuel, they do emit less carbon dioxide than gasoline engines. That's where the clean part ends. "Diesel" and "clean" should not be used in the same sentence.

I know, carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas, global warming, melting the icecaps, flood the coastlines, yadda yadda. True, but carbon dioxide is naturally occurring, it is already one of the most plentiful gasses in the atmosphere, and it won't kill you to breathe it in any reasonable concentration. Otherwise, the soot, sulphur and other gaseous emissions from diesels are nasty, poison, and known to be carcinogenic. Diesels cannot pass the stringent emissions standards to which gasoline engines are subject, so the standards have been lowered for diesels. When diesel marketers and other spinners get ahold of the subject and tell you how clean diesels are, if you check the fine print you discover what they're actually saying is that diesels are way cleaner than they used to be. True enough, but they aren't being compared to gasoline engines, because that comparison makes diesels a big loser.

You should also keep in mind that one of the things that has hurt gasoline engine mileage is the need for detuning and all the mileage-robbing claptrap needed to meet emissions standards. You want good gas mileage from a gasoline engine? Bring back lead in the gas and jack compression ratios back up to 12.5 or 14:1. I'm not advocating this, it's a horrible idea, but if diesels were held to the same standards, their mileage would likely suffer as well.

I hasten to state, I don't know how this clean or dirty thing applies to biodiesel. However, we're not talking pie in the sky, we're talking fuel that you can actually buy and run in your engine today.

I have driven the Jetta diesel, touted by some to be the "state of the art" in automotive diesels. Truly impressive mileage. Even more impressive lack of acceleration. 0-60? Can you say "next week"? The most anemic four banger gasoline engine can run rings around this car. When people are willing to put up with poor performance in a gasoline engine, they get pretty impressive mileage too.

BTW, on the Today show this morning they stated gasoline prices are expected to fall from the current national average $2.07/gal to $1.81 by the middle of July. You should be glad you kept that V10 pickup and didn't immediately run out and replace it with a stinky, noisy diesel or some higher mileage front wheel drive minivan with a V6 I know, guys, some of you are perfectly happy with your V6 front wheel drive minivans, but don't forget Billy's the one with the 140HP Suzuki on his 26X.

Buy a diesel because (as there's no doubt) you'll get better mileage than a gasoline engine, and thereby do your part to reduce our country's dependence on foreign oil.

Don't buy it to save money or reduce emissions, because you almost certainly won't do either.

[Tom Root]

I hasten to state, I don't know how this clean or dirty thing applies to biodiesel. However, we're not talking pie in the sky, we're talking fuel that you can actually buy and run in your engine today.

Don't buy it to save money or reduce emissions, because you almost certainly won't do either.

Chip, agreed, and seeing my black cloud of unburned fuel from my non-computerized diesel fueled choke machine, may not be perfect, but again, my solution appears to be?

Bio-Diesel can be obtained commercially, but is relatively rare at this point in availability, and economically unjustified. Claims are out there that the two generally mass produced Bio-diesels B-10, and B-20 (10% & 20% respective blends of alcohol) are better environmentally, but still produce way more bad pollutants than SVO, and WVO.

As stated in a previous post, my method becomes viable, if you have the time, money and effort available to commit at a personal level, to homebrew, and store either SVO, or WVO.

I am still looking at possibly making my own Bio-diesel, but it appears to way too messy, and dangerous? The sheer volitility of substances, and the time investment and local environmental headaches don't justify me manufacturing this stuff! Since the primary reason I would use it is simply for the Stop and Start sequence required to effectively utilize SVO/WVO, so it obtains at least 150+ degrees in it's plumbing arraingement!

Along with the original intention of THIS thread, as in other means of obtaining renewable resources, I recall that a plant called Jojoba (pronounced Hohoba, spanish in origin) was grown extensively in the southwest deserts during WWII. It is indigeonous to our deserts in the southwest! Amoung it's finer attributes, it has an extremly high volumn of oil in it's makeup, and is simple to cultivate, as it requires very little water! It was found to be a suitable as a replacement for diesel when our war reserve was dwindling for obvious reasons then, and fossil fuels were the norm. Again, veggie oils do not pollute to a large degree, our lungs ( and other oxygen breathing creatures) and just emit a smell of, well.....foods!

Again the approach some enterprising and wise individual, or company should take, faced with the current dilhemma, blood for oil program, is to fully capitalize on a better way of doing things, this makes obvious sense to me anyway! My opinion only, and not attempting to invite political discussion aside from my own beliefs, but now, I layed it fully out on the table! I certainly don't want you to think this is my ONLY agenda...please! I am a warrior, but that has a time and place, and trust me I hate war with a true passion, been there, done that! Sailing is first and foremost! It will take real people with a vision to accomplish some diverse and suitable solutions for our great nation, and the world! Politics and religion I shy away from, as we all have extreme diverse opinions in those areana's!

Rudolf Diesel originaly intended for his internal combustion engine to run on veggie oil actually, in it's developement in the 19th century! But since the mechanisms were already in place to utilize fossil fuels, it was chosen because it was more readily available and worked OK, but now we see it's true drawbacks! It's dirty, it's also a carcinogen, and all the other things pointed out by Chip so eloquently! I say, we either advance in producing a more ecologically sound fuel (Veggie oil) for the internal combustion engine, or totally scrap it, and utilize a better technology! And sooner rather than later, because we in fact are not diminishing our dependance on fossil fuels, as the lifeblood of the machines that run our world! Particularly in the military, most diesel engines were designed as multifuel capable (including gasoline) because of availability issues, and logistical considerations, so they may be the answer...who knows?

There simply has to be a solution, I have just suggested, mine! I realize I alone cannot save this planet from our abuse to it, and mother nature heals most wounds we inflict upon it, but I am truly attempting on a personal level to be more responsible citizen of the world.

Hopefully, my point is taken here on this post, I am not a peacenik, tree hugging, full blown liberal, really! ( I have voted in every election since I was 18 though, and for candidates in every party also! I vote on issues, and not charisma) You have to know me to understand why I am passionate about some things, and feel we should all have an awareness, so we can all still have the freedom to sail into the sunset, and enjoy life more fully! Utopia....we'll never obtain that, I'm convinced! Nirvana...never happen!

And do I possess all the correct answers? Well, I'd be much better financially if that were the case!!!

And I NEVER abused drugs or alcohol (OK, maybe a time or three, Rum is a good thing sometimes....medicinal purposes, of course!)

OK, I'll shut my pie hole now, I'm sounding like a bad late night infomercial!