Standard Jib vs 150 Genoa

[ESPERANZA]

Good info guys. As I read each persons opinions and experiences (especially about sheeting with the sail partially furled) it brings me back to the location of the cabin top tracks. Take a look at the video. I'm getting some new tracks mounted out between the stantions. I just can't help but think with a little more room between the main and jib, you will get better air flow and less back winding of the main. Especially with a gennie rolled up to 100...
As far as sailing in 20+ winds, I sheet my jib from the genoa cars. Less heel, good power, more stabil all the way around...
Dik...

[jmdefino]

I interested reading this thread as Chip Hindes and I were sailing out on Cayuga Lake a couple of weeks ago and we both noticed that I was able to sail closer to the wind than he was at any time. We have the same boat (2000 X) but I have a mylar 150 while Chip has the standard Dacron. I did a test in about 10 knots of wind and was able to tack reliably across 80 deg.
Back at the dock we discussed what might possibly be the difference and both concluded that it must be the mylar headsail. That seemed to be the only difference.

I've only had my X about 6 months. Prior to that I had a 26S. I was always concerned that I would be dissapointed with the windward performance of the X in comparison to the S but frankly I have been pleasantly surprised.

[Dan B]

Too many variables to say. Might be
- Newness (not composition) of your sails that made a difference as Dacron sails will stretch over time.
- Weight distribution on board each boat
- etc.

Also wonder if you had your mains trimmed identically. I have found that slacking the main halyard a few inches moves the camber after, creating a finer entry. This allows for higher pointing.

[jmdefino]

Yes, I agree, there are lots of variables. We both tried a number of adjustments to the main and genny. It's difficult for me to fully observe my own sails, but at one point, I commented to my wife that it appeared that our genny had a smooth camber overall whereas Chip's appeared from our angle to have a little "belly". I'm fairly new at this so my observations are not made with a trained eye.
Chip and I will be out sailing on the Chesapeake this weekend. If we get any wind, we'll have to do some more tests.

BTW, I noticed you are in Cary. We are moving our boat down to Oriental at the end of the month. We purchased a home on the water there and hope to move within the year.

[Dan B]

Oriental is a fantastic place. I have been marina shopping - lots to choose from.

[Moe]

Let me see if I have this correct. In general:

In light air:

The genoa is faster when running or reaching. When running upwind, the genoa has to tack wider, but in doing so, is enough faster on these tacks to wind up at the same or better time as the standard jib doing narrower tacks. Is that assuming there's sufficient water to run longer between the same number of tacks? Or will a narrower channel increase the number of tacks required by the genoa to make it slower?

In heavier air, where the genoa has to be reefed more than the standard jib:

The standard jib is faster when running or reaching, and considerably faster when running upwind, due to better sail shape, [on edit] as well as sheets being outboard of shrouds.

Sound right?

--
Moe

[Andy26M]

Generally speaking, you won't point as high with a Genoa for a few reasons, including (not necessarily limited to):

- sail shape - the average genoa is geared for performance on a reach or run, and there is a design tradeoff (center of effort, etc.) that works against best performance to windward
- sheeting path - as Moe notes above, with the Genny sheets run outside the shrouds, you are limited as to how far in you can sheet them

In the back of the 26M manual, it mentions that in order to point higher while using a Genoa, you can lead the Genny sheet between the 2 shrouds, thus allowing you to sheet the sail inboard of the outer shroud. I have tried this and it indeed works very well, I gained around 5-7 degrees of pointing. However, you can't turn downwind (bear off) with it like this, so I'd only really do it if I was going upwind for a fairly long time.

The other thing to note is that Mac (correctly) refers to this as a roller-furling genoa, NOT a roller-reefing Genoa. The stock genny has atrocious sail shape when partially rolled in. To correct this, what needs to be done is to have a pad or set of pads sewn into the leading edge of the sail (reefing pads). Properly designed, these pads tighten the belly of the sail when it is partially rolled in (reefed) - after all, you are reefing it beacuse the wind is too strong, so what you want is a very flat sail, not a parachute. (think of rolling up a carpet with a pillow in it) I spoke to a Doyle rep (Doyle made the stock sails on my 26M) at the Newport show a few weeks ago, and he said they could do reefing pads for "probably $150-200".

I've also found that with the Genoa, I get better pointing by keeping the genny sheeted fairly tight and slacking the main just a hair from what you'd expect, but that may be different for the 26X'rs who do not have a traveler.

- AndyS

[Jeff S]

Before buying the stock Doyle Genoa, get an quote from cruising direct sails (do a yahoo search). You'll be glad you did. Also there is nothing that says you have to use a 150%. I went with a 140%.

Why did you decided on a 140? One more question- I have a CDI Roller Furler, I would want to change the sail depending on the winds prior to launching. How difficult is it to change the sails on a CDI FF2?

Went out today with 5 knot winds and jib wishing I had the Genny. Last time I went out there were 15 knot winds and I was happy I had the Jib up.

I just started taking classes. Being in school every other weekend is cramping my sailing time- I had to get out for a 1.5 hour trip after school today to get my fix. Despite low winds the boat was going 3-5 knots and it was beautiful out- all was right with the world.

Jeff S

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Changing the sail is no more difficult than on any furler. Just don't forget to attach a messenger line to the halyard shuttle before you release it. It's a pain if you let that go up as the sail comes down and have no way to hoist the new sail. Other than that you just slide the luff rope in the foil slot as you hoist the new sail.

[Chip Hindes]

Changing the sail is no more difficult than on any furler.

Agree, and that means it can be quite a big PITA, in that it has to be fully unrolled to change it. In light winds, changing from the jib to the genny is not too big an effort. However, when you have to change back, unrolling a big genny in stiff winds can be exciting if not downright dangerous.

I'm saying this from a theoretical standpoint. Although I've had to unroll and remove my genny in stiff winds on two separate occasions, I've never had the working jib out of the bag except to put the sheets on it, when I bought the boat.

[Harry van der Meer]

To correct this, what needs to be done is to have a pad or set of pads sewn into the leading edge of the sail (reefing pads). Properly designed, these pads tighten the belly of the sail when it is partially rolled in (reefed) - after all, you are reefing it beacuse the wind is too strong, so what you want is a very flat sail, not a parachute. (think of rolling up a carpet with a pillow in it) I spoke to a Doyle rep (Doyle made the stock sails on my 26M) at the Newport show a few weeks ago, and he said they could do reefing pads for "probably $150-200".

Andy, can you explain this in more detail? How does this work? Pictures?

[Frank C]

Harry,
Read here about UKSailmakers' Passagemaker Genoa.

The crescent-shaped foam luff pad is the feature that helps the sail retain a smooth aerodynamic shape while reefed. The pad adds bulk to the center of the roll, which flattens the sail as it is reefed. Flattening the sail reduces heeling.

Then read about NorthSails "rope luff" which is apparently available for adding-on to your sail.

ROPE LUFF is an alternative to other roller reefing options such as foam luff pads or AeroLuff. A ROPE LUFF works on the same principal as a foam luff pad, allowing the sail to furl around the headstay smoothly. A tapered bundle of ropes are placed inside a dacron sleeve and stitched to the sail behind the luff tape.

[dclark]

Before buying the stock Doyle Genoa, get an quote from cruising direct sails (do a yahoo search). You'll be glad you did. Also there is nothing that says you have to use a 150%. I went with a 140%.

Why did you decided on a 140? One more question- I have a CDI Roller Furler, I would want to change the sail depending on the winds prior to launching. How difficult is it to change the sails on a CDI FF2?

Went out today with 5 knot winds and jib wishing I had the Genny. Last time I went out there were 15 knot winds and I was happy I had the Jib up.

I just started taking classes. Being in school every other weekend is cramping my sailing time- I had to get out for a 1.5 hour trip after school today to get my fix. Despite low winds the boat was going 3-5 knots and it was beautiful out- all was right with the world.

Jeff S

A 150% seemed like a bit more then I wanted. As it is I often partially roll back the 140%.

Changingit isn't difficult, but I wouldn't want to do it on the water, especially in heavy wind.

[baldbaby2000]

I don't know if this will work on the 26X, but the 26M manual says one can run the genoa sheets between the upper and lower shrouds to point higher. You need to move them to the outside if you're not pointing.

[Harry van der Meer]

Works great on the X also. Not difficult to change the sheets while under sail.