alcohol or propane stove?

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

The absolutely worst choice would be to store the large tank below. Even the main valves on that tanks are not fool proof. Sometimes the vent screw doesn't get sealed when when the tanks are filled. I've had a couple times when our BBQ or deck heater tank has emptied itself over a few days even when the main valve was supposedly turned off. Having that tank below goes against all established safety practices in the marine industry.

Also, make sure any fan you use for the bilge blower is rated for engine spaces. It has to start and run without producing any sparks in the motor (likewise your bilge pump motors). Standard ventilation fans cannot be used where you are dealing with flammable vapor or gas.

[Highlander]

Gypsy

A #25 tank in the cabin yep then the admiral decides to light up one of these nice cented candles and just as your getting ready to pour that nice bottle of red wine "BANG" Your Life lights right up before you
When we were kids where I came from we used to make bombs from butane lighter refill bottles you know the ones the size of a tube of tooth paste stick a penny banger fuse into them go down to the local park plant them in the daffidil & tulip gardens wait for the old folks to walk by & BOOM man you never seen a sight like that was the most exercise these old folks got in years , was a wonder we never killed anybody or ourselfs flower bulbs & dirt dropping out of the sky like crazy they would leave a 6-8ft crater 3ft deep in the flower beds . so I was thinking maybe you should go that route you'll have your plot already made and save a good boat from a certain death which you could donate to my good cause ! have you made a Will yet
J

[TexasDan40]

Propane

[KayakDan]

Gypsy,the idea of a tank inside the boat is scary. If you are worried about being able to shut the system down,install the safety equipt as I mentioned before and you can still shut the fuel off at the solenoid,and the propane control for the solenoid is inside the cabin,near the stove.
Think about trying to reach under the galley to shut off the tank while a fire is raging a foot away from your face. With the propane control panel,I can reach over and tap the panel-propane off. Much safer.

[Chinook]

Speaking of boat fires, I happened onto one while on the Chesapeake back in September. Pretty dramatic, and pretty scary. We were on our way to meet friends for breakfast at a marina in Solomons Island. I'd parked the truck and started walking to the restaurant when I saw black smoke coming up from the stern of a power boat which was tied up in a slip. I yelled out to someone nearby, asking if 911 had been called. Answer: "Yes, just called them". I ran out to the boat, an older 24 foot cabin cruiser. One other person was at the boat, and we confirmed that no one was aboard. Bright orange flames and black smoke were billowing out of the stern. The fiberglass panels covering the engine compartment were bubbling as they burned. I grabbed a marina fire extinguisher and the other guy sprayed water from a dock hose. We quickly knocked down the visible flame, but smoke continued coming out of gaps in the floor plates and from vents on the side of the boat. We didn't dare try lifting those plates. By this time the fire department had arrived, and brought equipment out to finish putting out the fire. They also had to set up a pump, because by this time the boat had a noticeable list. I brought the empty extinguisher back and notified the harbormaster that it had been used on the fire, and then went to breakfast. Exciting start to the day. After breakfast we went out to have another look at the boat. The cover plates had been removed, exposing the engine compartment. It looked like the owner had been working on one of the twin V8's. Head had been removed on one engine, and a tool box was nearby. Best guess is that some sort of electrical short had caused the fire. Maybe a worn hot wire or a tool left where it could short something out. It sure was an ugly mess. The sight of that fire burning, as well as the messy results are something I hope I never again see.

[Kelly Hanson East]

When I helped bring Halv Maen up from NYC last winter, the Skipper made a point of asking how many of us had confined space fire fighting skills on our resumes..No one did.

The point was a fire below decks on any boat means bug out and live to tell the tale - no heroics

Well done, Mike.

[argonaut]

If you're gonna go with propane stored down below.... I'd seriously consider renaming that boat "La Bomba".
I use butane in small bottles, always stored in the outside lockers.
The only boat I've seen with plumbed-in propane had vented outside storage and an electric disconnect solenoid.
And then you're gonna want to check those lines periodically for leaks -and- have a gas detector.

I have used propane for my outside Magma grill and on two separate occasions the propane tank valve in those little green bottles stuck open as I was unscrewing them, spewing propane for several seconds till I could reseat the dang things with a tool. I'd -never- have propane down below.
I'd love to go Origo. Keep it Simple (Safe).

[bubba]

We have added a 1.5 gal propane tank (to fuel our Magma grill mountained on the stearn rail seat frame) under the helm seat in front of our 70 Suz. I found a large white pvc connecting flange about 10 inches dia and 12 inches tall ( like used for city sewer lines ) that my tank fits in snuggly, I bolted the connector to the boat in front of the stearing and motor cables. I also put a stainless steele bolt thru the top edge with a wingnut to hold the tank secure. It does not hit the motor when fully raised. the 1.5 tank takes the place of about 8 regular bottles and cost about 6 bucks to fill, the price of 2 of the smaller bottles. If I am out crusing it is easy to carry on shore to refill, I saw them at West Marine but mine came from Trust Worthy Hardwear and needs repainting some yearly. In our galley we use an alcohol stove that came standard on our boat and then we worry about carbon monxide and mountained our monitor almost on the floor since we sleep in our aft burth. Exploding MacGregors are not fun , Careful with gasses in your boat lots of them are heavier than good air and can sufficate you and yours quitely.

[vkmaynard]

If you want to use Propane then use Natural gas instead. A sailor/engineer software guy that worked here used Natural gas on his boat. Natural gas density at STP is 0.044 - 0.056 lb/cubic ft versus 0.08062 lb/cubic ft for Air. Therefore, it floats out of the cabin instead of settling to the cabin sole.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gas-d ... d_158.html

Victor

[Bluecrab]

If you want to use Propane then use Natural gas instead.

I spent a weekend on a friends boat this summer up in the Aposles, a 1986 Tartan 34. It has the Pressurized natural gas system. Many in the marina have switched to a "professionally installed" propane "system" because of the difficulty to find places to refill. His system uses a tank similar to a large scuba tank that he has to take the tank out and bring it a place in the St Paul to have it refilled. Works great and I don't think he plans to change it out as long as he can still refill it. If he does convert to propane, I would hope he has it done professionally.

Wally

[Russ]

If you want to use Propane then use Natural gas instead.

I spent a weekend on a friends boat this summer up in the Aposles, a 1986 Tartan 34. It has the Pressurized natural gas system. Many in the marina have switched to a "professionally installed" propane "system" because of the difficulty to find places to refill. His system uses a tank similar to a large scuba tank that he has to take the tank out and bring it a place in the St Paul to have it refilled. Works great and I don't think he plans to change it out as long as he can still refill it. If he does convert to propane, I would hope he has it done professionally.

Wally

That's the problem with natural gas, you can't find a place to refill so you have to lug it to the refill location. That doesn't work well when you don't have wheels or didn't realize you are out of gas on the hook.

Eeh, the 1# propane and butane canisters are easy to purchase and if stored outside reasonably safe. We keep 2, a primary and a spare.
It's a personal decision, but with a little common sense and precautions, I don't find it dangerous to use propane.

--Russ

[ROAD Soldier]

Going from Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) to Propane, this is like going from new Mustang to a Model T completely in the wrong direction. Granted your reasoning of availability maybe sound in some areas but give it time and it will be available everywhere. The number one thing that regulates everything in capitalist society is money. The 2 questions that all Marinas will be facing shortly in the future are: A. How much is going to cost to switch services over to CNG? B. How much is it going to cost if we don’t. The answer to question A is simple supply and demand. The more Marinas switch to CNG the more CNG products will be produced and available so the cheaper it will become. So if you are a Marina operator you don’t want to be the first to switch because it will cost you more then someone latter. However you don’t want to be the last one either. The reasons for this are the answers to question B. Question B answers are more complicated and in depth so at risk of not writing a 20 page report I will try to summarize it. Lawyers like to make money by suing companies who do not keep up with the times. Once the insurance industry perceives propane to be more of a risk then CNG boat manufacture, marinas, and boat owners that don’t want to pay an exuberant amount of money for insurance are going to switch over. Those that don’t will leave themselves wide open to lawsuits even if using propane is Federally Legal. Why because there is something called industry standard. If everyone else is doing it why aren’t you applies here big time. This is where the lawyer puts that Expert Witness on the stand and makes you look like a retard for the actions of the stupid us person on earth which causes you to look negligent and get your butt sued off. Once again I will reiterate I was at the Annapolis Sailboat show this year and CNG is a lot more prevalent now then before, it is starting to take over. It has begun so the phrase "pay me now or pay me a lot latter" will soon be in full effect.

[ukauction]

I have an Origo Alcohol stove in my X and it's great - I certainly don't like Propane inside. I do have a Magma grill on the rear rail and that's fine with the small propane cylinders. I have heard a little about CNG and it's likely safer as it's lighter than air - but I think for this and any larger sailboat in the forseeable future I'll personally stick with the alc. stove. Anyhow in FL the issue is staying cool generally - so I mostly use the Magma anyway

[Russ]

Lawyers like to make money by suing companies who do not keep up with the times.

They will have to sue people for using gasoline which causes more explosions than propane.

Once the insurance industry perceives propane to be more of a risk then CNG boat manufacture, marinas, and boat owners that don’t want to pay an exuberant amount of money for insurance are going to switch over.

The insurance companies work off of actuarial tables and until they can prove propane is more dangerous I don't see them changing. My insurance company never even asked me what I cook or heat with. Surely if this is a concern for settlements, they would rate me based on the higher risk.

Why because there is something called industry standard. If everyone else is doing it why aren’t you applies here big time.

Standards take a long time to change. We've been using gasoline in our cars for a long time.
In our marina we are lucky to have a gas pump and holding tank pump out. It will make it here last and I can wait.

Once again I will reiterate I was at the Annapolis Sailboat show this year and CNG is a lot more prevalent now then before, it is starting to take over. It has begun so the phrase "pay me now or pay me a lot latter" will soon be in full effect.

I'm sure for larger boats this is the case. I've only seen CNG on larger boats. I honestly don't see it happening on our boats as they are not designed for serious cooking duties.

[ROAD Soldier]

Russ is correct our boats are designed for serious cooking duties so don’t use a large propane system was the original point to begin with. In fact I think it was alcohol or propane. Between those two alcohols hands down is the better, tons safer and easier maintenance. I obviously complicated the issue by bringing up the soupier Wallas diesel/kerosene stove-heater. Now as far the rest regarding trends I spook of time will tell. Now in the past there has been intenses where my timing has been a little off:
1. In 1994 I got my butt chewed for telling a General that we would be back in Iraq in about 10 years to finish the job. I was wrong it only took 9. Yep I deserved the ass chewing.
2. In 2000 I was ridiculed for training my Army Helicopter Mechanics on conducting base security patrols during Sergeants Time. At the time my guys thought it was stupid. My superiors thought I was a nut at the time, because both superiors and subordinates thought the Infantry would protect our airfields. I told them that with all the reductions in manpower we had suffered in the last 8 years that we would be on our own if something happened. Well the first 3 months when we invaded Iraq Longknife Squadron an all Aviation Squadron of the 3rd Armored Calvary Regiment was at Al Assad all by itself. Flying aircraft, fixing aircraft, and providing it own force protection on the perimeter and conducting security patrols.
3. Now without sounding like a modern day Nostradamus I will just say what I predicted in 1993 after the first attack on the World Trade centers and what really happened 8 years later, well let’s just say I was off by about 5 years. Won’t say which way I will let you all decide that.
Now where does gasoline in cars have to do with cooking and heating your boat? Well you guess is as good as mine.