alcohol or propane stove?

[kitcat]

Having waded through this long thread, it seems to me that there could be a place for propane to fuel the cooker, but with safeguards.

Keep the fuel stored outside somewhere safe, change bottles outside, but what seems to have been overlooked, please put me right if I have missed it, is that if the area under the stove is enclosed and vented, say into the waste water pipe and overboard, any gas that leaks out will not find its way into the bilge. Also, just in case it does, have a gas 'sniffer' under the floor to sound an alarm, so at least the crew are aware there is a problem.

OK guys, go ahead and put me right

Paul

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

You are right that in a way, we have a slightly safer galley design when using a portable propane/butane stove on the Mac galley counter top. Because our galley tops have a molded lip around them and the galley sink is molded into the top without any lip around it, in theory any gas that leaks could be captured by the top and would then run into the sink and down the drain just as if you spilled water on the top. Of course all this depends on the angles of pitch and roll the boat happens to be at at the time. At least it is better than nothing and could direct a small gas spill overboard, but I don't think it would be enough for the quantity that would be released in a stuck tank valve event or when someone unknowingly opens the stove valve and the full tank is allowed to empty.

It's really the accidentally open valve scenario that worries me most. Our galleys are somewhat low and people tend to lean against them a lot. I've found a few times where one of the sliders on our Origo has been moved by accident and isn't discovered until who knows how long later. With the un-pressurized alcohol this isn't a big deal as the amount of vapor released by evaporation is very small, with a pressurized propane tank by the time you may discover it the whole tank is now empty and the gas is down on the floor and the bilge creating a real problem that is hard to deal with.

[Kelly Hanson East]

Paul - you cant put a propane cylinder (any size) under the galley safely, without major mods running 1000 USD or more.

The use protocol is

1 First preference - cook in cockpit above decks
2 If we have to use the galley
New cylinders only
Store in fuel locker
Mount cylinder when ready to cook, then ignite
Stove always attended
Finish, turn off, remove tank, back upstairs in fuel locker.

[Russ]

You are right that in a way, we have a slightly safer galley design when using a portable propane/butane stove on the Mac galley counter top. Because our galley tops have a molded lip around them and the galley sink is molded into the top without any lip around it, in theory any gas that leaks could be captured by the top and would then run into the sink and down the drain just as if you spilled water on the top.

On my "M" the drain has a loop and exits below the waterline. Any gas would only settle in the line and never run out. A truly "vapor proof" container under the stove would seem pointless as well as the gas could flow up and over just about anything.

The way I see it, everything has risks. We would never carry 12-24 gallons of gasoline for the dangers of the heavier than air explosive vapors. Some common sense precautions go a long way.
I wonder what the stats are for boats blowing up from galley explosions? I bet far fewer than from gasoline explosions.

--Russ

[richandlori]

Alcohol, not only burning cooler, thus taking more and running out sooner, is MUCH more dangerous than propane. THIRD DAY had a Alcohol stove and it was left by the Dumpster in Santa Cruz as we prepared to bring the boat home to refit and prepare for cruising.

Rich

[DaveB]

Rich, not only do I agree but will add a little more info.
First I will say alcohol doesn't belong on a boat unless it's consume, btu's much more lower than kerosine, butane or propane take much longer time to cook meals and burn fuel.
1lb propane canisters I cook on a skillet below decks are perfect. The butane bottle I cook on a single burner stove is perfect down below.
Just store the 1lb canisters next to fuel tanks as they are air lock from cabin.
I would never use a open flame alcohol or a flame resister on my boat . (to many flare ups)
On a long distant cruiser I would highly recommend oderless Kerosine. You do have to prime with alcohol but btu's are slightly lower than propane but 5 gal. lasted me 3 years in the carribean.
We used pressure cookers for bread,cooking and jaring fish we had left over along many other items.
20lb propane tanks belong on 35fter's with sealed lockers and selinoids.
Keep things simple, your boat won't blow up on a 1lb propane canister...just know how to use your fire extingisure at a moments notice on any fuel you burn.
If you have CNG in your area..go for it, it's lighter than air and never have to worry about it going to bildge.


Dave

Alcohol, not only burning cooler, thus taking more and running out sooner, is MUCH more dangerous than propane. THIRD DAY had a Alcohol stove and it was left by the Dumpster in Santa Cruz as we prepared to bring the boat home to refit and prepare for cruising.

Rich

[MadMacX]

I'm still not convinced that propane is the way to go!! I have an Origo non-pressurized alcohol cooktop on my X and it perform just fine. It offers 7000 BTU's of heat and burns clean. I've looked around and seen similar size butane units offer 7500 btu's of heat and propane offers 8000 btu's of heat. From a safety standpoint I feel much more comfortable with alcohol, than propane or butane. Now, if you have a boat that was built to accommodate propane, then by all means that would be the preferred choice of fuel, but using the small containers down below, just makes no sense.

I use my small Origo cooktop to cook many meals. That, plus my propane Magma Grill is all we need. Oh, I'm sure if I had another 1000 btu's, like propane offers, my meal prep could be reduced by, oh let's say, two minutes. Hmmmmm, I don't think I want to risk a problem down below just to save a few minutes of prep time. What is the big hurry? Your coffee will get made, the eggs will get cooked, everything will get done. If that's not fast enough, get a huge bank of batteries, an inverter and a microwave. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I'm sticking with my Origo.

Just my .02 worth.

Pat

[kmclemore]

!

kmclemore:

I deleted two postings from two people that ought to know better than to make personal attacks or introduce political slurs in the forum. We will act as gentlemen in this forum - if folks want to yell at each other, take it to the back room, not here. And if this topic cannot be discussed in a civilized manner henceforth, I will lock the topic. If either one of the posters has a problem with this, they may contact me offline (PM or eMail), but a public discussion of this matter will absolutely not be held here. Carry on... but do it respectfully. And keep any politics to yourself in this forum - that sort of talk belongs in the back room only.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Those who think alcohol requires pre heating and is subject to flare ups obviously haven't had experience with a non-pressurized Origo stove. It requires absolutely no preheating to light and never has flare ups of any kind. Those are characteristics of the old style pressurized alcohol stoves. Even that type of stove was preferred on a boat for many many decades over any pressurized gas for one simple reason, it only takes a spark to light the gas while it takes an open flame to ignite the much harder to light alcohol. It's a very recognized fact established long ago that alcohol, while not the hottest fuel, is the safest fuel to use on a boat.

We've cooked hundreds of meals on our Origo without any issues about cooking time or temperature. One canister of Alcohol will operate the stove for weeks before it needs filling. You can fill a canister almost 4 times from a quart of fuel. I go through far more tanks of propane for the grill than I do quarts of alcohol and the galley stove gets used way more often than the BBQ.

[Paul S]

Those who think alcohol requires pre heating and is subject to flare ups obviously haven't had experience with a non-pressurized Origo stove. It requires absolutely no preheating to light and never has flare ups of any kind. Those are characteristics of the old style pressurized alcohol stoves. Even that type of stove was preferred on a boat for many many decades over any pressurized gas for one simple reason, it only takes a spark to light the gas while it takes an open flame to ignite the much harder to light alcohol. It's a very recognized fact established long ago that alcohol, while not the hottest fuel, is the safest fuel to use on a boat.

We've cooked hundreds of meals on our Origo without any issues about cooking time or temperature. One canister of Alcohol will operate the stove for weeks before it needs filling. You can fill a canister almost 4 times from a quart of fuel. I go through far more tanks of propane for the grill than I do quarts of alcohol and the galley stove gets used way more often than the BBQ.

X2

the origo works great. open it up, lite it, cook, enjoy. wonderful. easy. safe. Nice steady, controlable, flame.

[opie]

Put me in the "I love my Origo alcohol stove" category.

Duane, did you mean 4 fills per quart or 4 fills per gallon of alcohol? I can't get 4 fills per quart.

[ROAD Soldier]

!

kmclemore:

OK, let me say this again, because clearly I was not understood... A public discussion of this matter will absolutely not be held here. I refer anyone to this forum's rules (here), where it says: Respect the Discussion Board Administrators and Moderators. We provide a service in our free time to keep the forum running efficiently. We will occasionally ask for input, but in some cases we will not, please respect our decisions. Also, we do edit for content, if you have an issue with our moderation, please contact the Administrator or Moderator directly. Posts to the Discussion Board questioning or complaining about Moderator or Administrator activity will be deleted. We have plenty of room for free speech, but like everything there is a time and place for it. In this case, any sort of political and personal rubbish takes place in the "Pub's" "Back Room". The Pub's Back Room was created specifically because the great majority of us here on the forum do *NOT* want politics or personal attacks mixed in with our boating discussions, and we don't want the atmosphere spoiled by the vitriol that it creates (and as was so aptly demonstrated by the original and now deleted postings). By separating the Back Room out and making folks sign up for it, one can then choose to opt-out of ever seeing Pub-related content... and a great many of us do just exactly that. As to how to access the "Pub", please see "Website News & Announcements" for instructions.

[Russ]

Those who think alcohol requires pre heating and is subject to flare ups obviously haven't had experience with a non-pressurized Origo stove. It requires absolutely no preheating to light and never has flare ups of any kind.

That's good information.

Our old boat had one of those dinosaurs, it was awful and I hated, hated, hated, it. You had to pump it up, preheat the burner, then it would flair up and spurt and spit and make horrendous sounds. It scared me to death. Then the next season, the wire mesh "filters" would be gunked up and my coffee would not be made. Surely one of man's worst inventions.

As for the Origo, it sounds like great little device and safer to use.

--Russ

[kitcat]

Yes, I was thinking the same. Probably better to spend a bit more and go for something safe that you never have to worry about. Like all these things, the cost is soon forgotten, whilst the quality and, in this case, the safety endures.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Opie,

Yes, sorry, technically each canister holds a qt of alcohol when dry so it would be 4 fills per gallon. I do however get better mileage so to speak than that. When my wife tells me it needs to be filled I find it takes half a quart or less to reach what I have decided is full. I can easily fill both my canisters from a quart and usually still have some left. Perhaps I am being conservative in how much I put in. I would guess that they really are not bone dry when I start, and I fill each canister with it tipped completely on it's side until I start to see the liquid reaching the lip in the indentation of the screen. This is as full as it is suppose to be according to the mfg instructions. You should be able to turn the canister completely on it's side and have no alcohol overflow. I've heard of a few people who have had problems when they over filled the canisters by holding them at an angle or flat. As you use the stove, the canister heats up and if over filled the alcohol can expand to the point where it overflows into the pan underneath and then can then burn inside the stove. This has caused me to be conservative in how full I fill the canisters. Even so, we still get well over a week of constant use out of the smaller amount of alcohol I put in each time.