I am battling my "desires" over my "needs" when it comes to outfitting my Mac with Sounder/GPS/Mapping capability. Mapping is not a high priority. I am in North Texas lakes for the next year or so, but then plan on getting down into the Keys/Tortuga and also the Bahamas.
For a combo unit, the 178C sure is nice, but I don't want to spend the money if I can accomplish the same thing in other ways. I have been thinking of the Eagle Fishmark 480 for sounder capability mounted on top of the Pedestal. I want the best shallow capability and don't really care for real deep so I am opting for single frequency. For GPS, I am thinking of the 76 to keep it portable for other activities, and then using the laptop for mapping later on.
Have any of you used these units and if so what did you think?
Dave
Anyone have any experience with the Garmin GPS 76
Charting is important to me for spot soundings, especially in unfamiliar waters, since my sounder/fishfinder capability isn't a look ahead type. It is also important to be able to identify hazards (i.e. limestone boulders or wrecks) which are often just below the surface where we boat, before we approach them.
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Moe
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Moe
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Duane Dunn, Allegro
- Admiral
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- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:41 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Bellevue, Wa '96 26x, Tohatsu 90 TLDI and Plug In Hybrid Electric drive
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I'd never want to be out without a reliable chart with depths. While you can certainly just use a paper chart, and hope the picture you are holding in your memory is right, it's so much easier to just use an electronic one.
A simple sounder is a necessity, but it won't tell you what you are going to hit ahead of time. Often once the sounder goes shallow it is too late to avoid the hazzard.
Being able to look at the projection line on the chart for your course will allow you to take action before it's too late.
Maybe if my cruising area was confined to a limited body of water with few hazzards would I consider not having a GPS/Chartplotter. As it is, we are always exploring new places and the chartplotter is an indespensible tool.
While the laptop seems very attractive, on our boats I have yet to find a practical way to use one on board. There is just not enough space at the helm to use a laptop, not to mention protecting it from spray, rain, etc. Having it down below is the same as not having it at all in my opinion. Your back to operating from memory just like with paper charts. You have to be able to look at the chart while at the helm, at any time without leaving the wheel. You can't keep ducking below to figure out where you are and what is ahead.
To me, even the installations that put the display at the companionway are not good enough. You can't see the necessary detail that far away. I did quite a bit of testing last summer trying to see if I could switch to a laptop on board since I have a couple old ones hanging around that are good enough for charting. I could keep it pretty protected inside my dodger, but it was just to far away to use for active steering and navigation.
The only real solution with a laptop is a waterproof remote display, but these are big bucks. There are also a few rugged laptops that could work and panasonic makes a rugged tablet PC that could be neat. Still none of these are cheap and all are far more than just getting a 178C and being done.
Using a Pocket Pc or a Palm as I do gives me all the functions of the laptop on a device that fit's at the pedestal, is easy to protect, and costs far less. I still have all the stuff on my laptop as well as it is where all the charts, routes, etc get sync'd from, but I don't have to use it under way. It is still the prefered device to do all planning on due to it's large screen.
Since I already have the gear for other purposes using it for charting made a lot of economical sense.
A simple sounder is a necessity, but it won't tell you what you are going to hit ahead of time. Often once the sounder goes shallow it is too late to avoid the hazzard.
Being able to look at the projection line on the chart for your course will allow you to take action before it's too late.
Maybe if my cruising area was confined to a limited body of water with few hazzards would I consider not having a GPS/Chartplotter. As it is, we are always exploring new places and the chartplotter is an indespensible tool.
While the laptop seems very attractive, on our boats I have yet to find a practical way to use one on board. There is just not enough space at the helm to use a laptop, not to mention protecting it from spray, rain, etc. Having it down below is the same as not having it at all in my opinion. Your back to operating from memory just like with paper charts. You have to be able to look at the chart while at the helm, at any time without leaving the wheel. You can't keep ducking below to figure out where you are and what is ahead.
To me, even the installations that put the display at the companionway are not good enough. You can't see the necessary detail that far away. I did quite a bit of testing last summer trying to see if I could switch to a laptop on board since I have a couple old ones hanging around that are good enough for charting. I could keep it pretty protected inside my dodger, but it was just to far away to use for active steering and navigation.
The only real solution with a laptop is a waterproof remote display, but these are big bucks. There are also a few rugged laptops that could work and panasonic makes a rugged tablet PC that could be neat. Still none of these are cheap and all are far more than just getting a 178C and being done.
Using a Pocket Pc or a Palm as I do gives me all the functions of the laptop on a device that fit's at the pedestal, is easy to protect, and costs far less. I still have all the stuff on my laptop as well as it is where all the charts, routes, etc get sync'd from, but I don't have to use it under way. It is still the prefered device to do all planning on due to it's large screen.
Since I already have the gear for other purposes using it for charting made a lot of economical sense.
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Mark Prouty
- Admiral
- Posts: 1723
- Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 8:52 am
- Location: Madison, WI Former MacGregor 26X Owner
I have a Garmin GPS Map 76. It is very accurate. I would much rather have a more expensive GPS/Chartplotter.
One minor thing annoying about the GPS Map 76 is that it is built with the display at the wrong end. When I put it in a cup holder, the display is at the bottom and I can't see it.
I have not tried to download Download MapSource. I'd be interested to know how good MapSource is on the Map 76.
Garmin GPS Map 76
One minor thing annoying about the GPS Map 76 is that it is built with the display at the wrong end. When I put it in a cup holder, the display is at the bottom and I can't see it.
I have not tried to download Download MapSource. I'd be interested to know how good MapSource is on the Map 76.
Garmin GPS Map 76
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delmitch2
GPS76
I am also considering the purchase of the 76 (no mapping).
At the risk of sounding "old school", I really don't see the "need" for charting for us right now.
We plan to travel quite a bit with our 2004M, and for that very reason charting doesn't appeal to me.
I will already have the cost of paper charts. I don't care what anyone says about the reliability or accuracy, I would never venture on the water without an up-to-date paper chart.
5 years ago my wife and I went from Lake Ontario to Key West, then back as far as North Carolina. Although I had been sailing for 15 years prior (dinghies, windsurfing), and also had an O'Day 22 for a couple of years on Lake Ontario, we were both very much "cruising" novices when we left . The first time we slept "on the hook" was halfway down the Hudson. We did that trip with a handheld Magellan GPS (no plotting) and full paper chart kits.
Prior to heading out for our planned day we would take waypoints off the charts, number them in the GPS, and proceed on our way. Although on the ICW for most of the way, you would be surprised by some of the larger bodies of water. We did our first offshore run from New York Harbour to Norfolk, placing all the seabuoys as waypoints. If you were ever unsure where you were you could do a "go to" on a waypoint. If you thought it should be off your port beam and GPS said it was 2 miles aft, you knew it was time to look closely again at the chart. Some may say if you had electronic plotting this wouldn't happen, and I agree that it would have made situations better at times; however, for our plans of visiting numerous sailing areas (1000 Islands, North Channel, Lake George, Chesapeake, The Keys), seems like an awful lot of electronic charts, especially if only visitng the area once.
Again, not saying mapping GPS isn't good, but pay attention to the old "want it vs. need it" gauge. Look closely at how you intend to sail and ALWAYS HAVE PAPER BACK-UPS!!!
Rant Complete,
Mark M.
At the risk of sounding "old school", I really don't see the "need" for charting for us right now.
We plan to travel quite a bit with our 2004M, and for that very reason charting doesn't appeal to me.
I will already have the cost of paper charts. I don't care what anyone says about the reliability or accuracy, I would never venture on the water without an up-to-date paper chart.
5 years ago my wife and I went from Lake Ontario to Key West, then back as far as North Carolina. Although I had been sailing for 15 years prior (dinghies, windsurfing), and also had an O'Day 22 for a couple of years on Lake Ontario, we were both very much "cruising" novices when we left . The first time we slept "on the hook" was halfway down the Hudson. We did that trip with a handheld Magellan GPS (no plotting) and full paper chart kits.
Prior to heading out for our planned day we would take waypoints off the charts, number them in the GPS, and proceed on our way. Although on the ICW for most of the way, you would be surprised by some of the larger bodies of water. We did our first offshore run from New York Harbour to Norfolk, placing all the seabuoys as waypoints. If you were ever unsure where you were you could do a "go to" on a waypoint. If you thought it should be off your port beam and GPS said it was 2 miles aft, you knew it was time to look closely again at the chart. Some may say if you had electronic plotting this wouldn't happen, and I agree that it would have made situations better at times; however, for our plans of visiting numerous sailing areas (1000 Islands, North Channel, Lake George, Chesapeake, The Keys), seems like an awful lot of electronic charts, especially if only visitng the area once.
Again, not saying mapping GPS isn't good, but pay attention to the old "want it vs. need it" gauge. Look closely at how you intend to sail and ALWAYS HAVE PAPER BACK-UPS!!!
Rant Complete,
Mark M.
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Duane Dunn, Allegro
- Admiral
- Posts: 2459
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:41 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Bellevue, Wa '96 26x, Tohatsu 90 TLDI and Plug In Hybrid Electric drive
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This applies to any of the Garmin mapping products. The MapSource maps are not good enough for on the water navigation. While they do have more shoreline detail than the built in base map, they have NO depth info. You have to buy the BlueChart series for your area to get a chart with depths.
Even loading the map with navaids is not enough. It will show you the shore and the bouys, but not any depth info.
Certainly electronic charting is not the only way to get there, but when exploring new territory it greatly reduces the stress level, particularly as you enter new harbors. It's amazing how convoluted some safe entrances can be.
I always have mine on for reference at the helm. We go boating to relax. Having a chartplotter on board is a big part making this possible. To me, it's in the must have category for both safety and an enjoyable trip.
We use preplanned waypoints and routes extensively. These work great feeding the autopilot. This too, has greatly increased the enjoyment of the boating experience freeing me from having to constantly tend the helm for hours on end. It's money well spent in my book. Last summers 500 mile trip would have been much more work without it.
Even loading the map with navaids is not enough. It will show you the shore and the bouys, but not any depth info.
Certainly electronic charting is not the only way to get there, but when exploring new territory it greatly reduces the stress level, particularly as you enter new harbors. It's amazing how convoluted some safe entrances can be.
I always have mine on for reference at the helm. We go boating to relax. Having a chartplotter on board is a big part making this possible. To me, it's in the must have category for both safety and an enjoyable trip.
We use preplanned waypoints and routes extensively. These work great feeding the autopilot. This too, has greatly increased the enjoyment of the boating experience freeing me from having to constantly tend the helm for hours on end. It's money well spent in my book. Last summers 500 mile trip would have been much more work without it.
MapSource is the name of the entire Garmin product line of maps and charts. BlueCharts ARE MapSource maps. MapSource is also the name of the software application that displays MapSource products. So I wouldn't say that MapSource maps aren't useful for navigation. That IS true for the base maps, however.
In order to contain a large part of the world, for example, a whole hemisphere, in internal memory, the base maps in any product are VERY crude representations of the shoreline and roads. Whole structures such as coves and small bays, not to mention curves, etc in waterways, may be missing, contained within one data point on the basemap Many Garmin marine products contain highway basemaps that provide more detail for the land than they do for the water, i.e. no nav-aids. Base maps which focus on the marine environment provide more nav-aids, services, etc. but nowhere near all. As Duane says, basemaps provide few, if any soundings (depths).
The non-charting GPS 76 (as opposed to the charting GPSMAP 76) doesn't even have a base map. You CAN load the Points of Interest database into it, and see your position relative to them, but I found that database was missing several important nav-aids in the area we boat, and I wouldn't count on it. Only the preprogrammed or uploaded detailed cartography, such as the BlueCharts are detailed enough for that, IMHO.
While it is definitely wise to carry paper chart backups, and even to maintain a plot on them if you don't have a backup electronic chartplotter, I would MUCH rather be navigating through a narrow, twisting channel, especially at night or in fog, with an electronic chartplotter, rather than have to have someone below plotting our positions from a lat-long-only GPS, onto a paper chart below and yelling up steering instructions.
Personally, I consider the $100 cost of a region I'll use only once, a lot cheaper than being towed off a soft grounding, having a prop repaired or replaced, or worse yet, holing the boat. To minimize MY cost of these, I'd probably buy that region on a preprogrammed card rather than as an unlock code for my BlueChart CD. That way, it wouldn't be tied to my unit's serial number and I could sell it on one of the many boating forums, and get part of my money back. Can't do that with a handheld.
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Moe
In order to contain a large part of the world, for example, a whole hemisphere, in internal memory, the base maps in any product are VERY crude representations of the shoreline and roads. Whole structures such as coves and small bays, not to mention curves, etc in waterways, may be missing, contained within one data point on the basemap Many Garmin marine products contain highway basemaps that provide more detail for the land than they do for the water, i.e. no nav-aids. Base maps which focus on the marine environment provide more nav-aids, services, etc. but nowhere near all. As Duane says, basemaps provide few, if any soundings (depths).
The non-charting GPS 76 (as opposed to the charting GPSMAP 76) doesn't even have a base map. You CAN load the Points of Interest database into it, and see your position relative to them, but I found that database was missing several important nav-aids in the area we boat, and I wouldn't count on it. Only the preprogrammed or uploaded detailed cartography, such as the BlueCharts are detailed enough for that, IMHO.
While it is definitely wise to carry paper chart backups, and even to maintain a plot on them if you don't have a backup electronic chartplotter, I would MUCH rather be navigating through a narrow, twisting channel, especially at night or in fog, with an electronic chartplotter, rather than have to have someone below plotting our positions from a lat-long-only GPS, onto a paper chart below and yelling up steering instructions.
Personally, I consider the $100 cost of a region I'll use only once, a lot cheaper than being towed off a soft grounding, having a prop repaired or replaced, or worse yet, holing the boat. To minimize MY cost of these, I'd probably buy that region on a preprogrammed card rather than as an unlock code for my BlueChart CD. That way, it wouldn't be tied to my unit's serial number and I could sell it on one of the many boating forums, and get part of my money back. Can't do that with a handheld.
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Moe
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Dullboy
- Chief Steward
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:45 pm
- Location: Southlake, Tx 2002 26X Suzuki DF50
I appreciate the points of perspective. I really hate throwing away money. I am thinking that the vast majority of the time, I would not be in a position to really require the Chartplotter. For those few times that I would, I can use the laptop at the helm. Just protect it with a platic bag.
If I already had a PPC, that would be different..... er.. much the same, just smaller.
The GPS 76 is had online for about $175 and is sporting a $50 rebate. The Eagle Fishmark 480 for about $200. (I plan to shoot-thru the hull). For approx $350, I would be set, minus the charts of course.
I still want to wait a couple of weeks to see what Lowrance is coming out with for their next years models. Perhaps there's a deal waiting to be had on the older Lowrance/Eagle units.
.......I hate waiting.
Dave.
If I already had a PPC, that would be different..... er.. much the same, just smaller.
The GPS 76 is had online for about $175 and is sporting a $50 rebate. The Eagle Fishmark 480 for about $200. (I plan to shoot-thru the hull). For approx $350, I would be set, minus the charts of course.
I still want to wait a couple of weeks to see what Lowrance is coming out with for their next years models. Perhaps there's a deal waiting to be had on the older Lowrance/Eagle units.
.......I hate waiting.
Dave.
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Dimitri-2000X-Tampa
- Admiral
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- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:36 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Tampa, Florida 2000 Mercury BigFoot 50HP 4-Stroke on 26X hull# 3575.B000
I love my Garmin 176c chartplotter. It is so nice to completely plan a trip the day before on your laptop and then program all the route info into the GPS so that it can drive the autopilot, etc. I would never cruise anywhere outside of my local bay without one. Its also really nice after the trip to check out where you have been, "charting" new anchorages, beaches, channels, etc. using the breadcrumbs it leaves behind. You can use this track info to plan future trips, etc.
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Dullboy
- Chief Steward
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:45 pm
- Location: Southlake, Tx 2002 26X Suzuki DF50
Thanks Tom, that's probably the setup I'll end up with. However, I like Duane's setup for portability and scalability.
Maybe a sounder/plotter, along with a Ipaq and the Vista for off boat activities. What the hull, it's only money, right?
Now if I can only convince "she who must be obeyed" that this is more important than her new double oven!!!!!!!!
Maybe a sounder/plotter, along with a Ipaq and the Vista for off boat activities. What the hull, it's only money, right?
Now if I can only convince "she who must be obeyed" that this is more important than her new double oven!!!!!!!!
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Frank C
I chose a Lowrance LMS160 five years ago and I've never been sorry. The "MS" indicates a map-sounder, and it's a very nice feature to have the numeric depth (in feet) shown on your plot. Their unit came with full USA maps at no extra cost - not the best maps in the world, but adequate for my needs, especially since the depths are actual.Dullboy wrote: . . . . Perhaps there's a deal waiting to be had on the older Lowrance/Eagle units.
I think they may still offer some units with full maps CD. Also, their newer units can also display several other map brands. However, the last time I looked, their website was convoluted. It may take you some time to figure out exactly what's available.
IMO - get a mapping sounder (or, is that sounding plotter??)!