Voids in water ballast tank of 26M

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

The light aircraft industry was almost completely destroyed due to product liability issues. Several years ago, some reform was passed and it was able to resume again. Most of the big manufacturers (Cessna, Piper, etc.) had completely stopped making light aircraft.

[Dominic]

I must say that I found virtually every sort of goods to be ridiculously over-priced. And one of the key reasons is just this sort of legislation... as you noted in your first line, you are paying dearly for "the 'feel good' factor" - almost double the price! We here in America are starting to pay dearly too... but it's not coming as much from consumer law as it is from litigation and insurance costs

.

No offence taken (and I don't say that often to an Englishman! ) but I would like to clarify the issues I raise for many of of our American cousins. The EU has introduced some dreadful, verbose and unneeded legislation seemingly for the sake of legislation. This has added immensely to costs for business which they can ill afford. Obviously, someone, somewhere is making a few bob out of it but this is nothing to do with home-grown consumer pretection.

Sure, things are more expensive in Britain but this is largely due to price fixing (something that costs x dollars in the USA will cost x pounds in the UK) hence the recently coined phrase 'rip-off Britain'. But I beleve in market forces and I still have the choice of importing a 26 and save money but I prefer to support local business. Incidently, the 26 is cheapest in Spain, most expensive in Ireland but the best value (considering the package as a whole) is in England.

The feel-good factor I am referring to is from the knowledge that if something does go wrong there are mechanisms available to put it right. One of the things I got from Chip's predicament is there is a lot of anxiety and stress introduced through no fault of his own. If legislation were available to mitigate or remove these negative effects then I'm all for it...

The analogy in another post between a Mercedes and a Hyundai is a good one, however, in the EU there is a certain minimum expectation of each product that has to be met and the manufacturers of these products strive to meet them. Each vehicle has to meet certain legislative standards before they are allowed into the showroom. Further refinements/safety measures are implemented as and when legislation dictates. This leads to a clear and unambiguous relationship between buyer and seller - and a robust product.

Ironically, I feel, it is is the recourse to legal redress that costs money and leads to higher insurance, something that consumer legislation seeks to pre-empt.

I feel Macgregor will, nay have, to sort this out to the satisfaction of Chip and all the other owners and prospective owners...It is a fine product but one rogue example can lead to negative connoctations in the 'minds eye' of the consumer...It is early days but I say "Come on Roger... get it sorted!"...

[opie]

OK, I agree about the Mercedes vs. cheaper car analogy, so scrap the knee-jerk airplane ride from Costa Mesa to the leaky? boat. How about the pictures that Bill asked for and Chip said he would take? Any Mac owner nearby who could take close-up pics for the members here? It might be too late if it gets turned over to the dealer to get "our" own candid shots.

[mike]

The light aircraft industry was almost completely destroyed due to product liability issues. Several years ago, some reform was passed and it was able to resume again. Most of the big manufacturers (Cessna, Piper, etc.) had completely stopped making light aircraft.

Few things sadden me more than how greedy lawyers (sorry, Chip) savaged the general aviation industry by manipulating bleeding heart juries into awarding outrageous and unwarranted judgments against airplane manufacturers.

Actually, I'm fairly certain Piper never stopped making planes, but Cessna had shut down all production except its lucrative Citation jets (and they resumed prop a/c production after the GA tort reform bill was passed in the late 90s).

Regardless, things seem very out of whack in terms of pricing... planes that should cost about as much as a luxury car instead cost as much as a nice house. I guess production volume has a lot to do with this as well (which you could partially blame on the lawsuit abuse).

--Mike

[Chip]

Sorry, everyone. I love this board and very much appreciate all of the interest and help and commentary regarding my boat. In fact, due to all of the time that everyone has invested, it would be criminal for me not to upload photos. I just haven't had a chance to sign the boat out from storage, read my instruction manual for my new digital camera, etc. I have been dealing with work and truck problems (yes, contemporaneous towing vehicle problems). As soon as I get home from work today, I will be doing all of that and WILL have photos up tomorrow before I leave town for the relatives' house for Thanksgiving.

Bill's call to Bill effectively repeats the conversation that I had with Bill of MacG. Again, it's all fair except for the attitude and repeated observation that my description of the leaks was unreasonable.

As to the disc, it is but one of five sources of leakage and if I were a betting man I'd bet that the disc can be linked to the dealer and the installation of my depth sounder (a thru hull transducer, I believe you call it). That one, I am not worried about and he'll fix it.

FYI, dealer is out till Monday but printed all of my emails to take with him out of town and he will call me first thing on Monday. Please look for photos tomorrow morning. Thanks again.

I couldn't agree more about the need for tort reform (especially since I work on the corporate defense side rather than as a member of the plaintiffs' bar).

Chip S.

[Jeff S]

I too am familiar with the issues of the GA industry. The exorbitantly high new aircraft prices today are largely a result of built in litigation protection for the manufacturers. That is one thing that worried me about the drunken boater case where the guy capsized the Mac killing several others and the lawyers tried to say it was Macgregor's fault for the design of the boat. There is always the old story about the lady who burned herself with spilled coffee from MacDonald's and sued.

This kind of litigious actions makes lawyers rich and idiots who survive their own idiotic actions wealthy. Sort of an inverse Darwinism wealth redistribution plan. Those with common sense and well meaning businesses are the ultimate losers in the end. There is a place for reasonable lawsuits, but we seem to have gone well past the point of protection in this country into the realm of ridiculous. My opinion.

This issue with the voids in the ballast is defintely something that Mac should deal with promptly as the issue could have (or could still if others with similar problems exist) developed into a serious problem where they would be liable for damage and/or injury and reasonably so. The other issue as mentioned here is the lost good will that would result from poor service.

As a side note I see the medical/pharmeceutical industry dealing with similar issues. The whole Flu vaccine production issue was a direct result of the litigious climate in which we live. On the other hand it appears the whole Vioxx thing bears some manufacturer liability... Lawyers are good to a point, a necessary evil to protect people- too many however...

Jeff S

[Chip]

I hope you don't mind if I politely bow out from the lawyer discussion. I do enjoy reading about your views of them, however. One day, like when all of my Mac bills and wife's Lexus bills are paid off, I'll become a public interest lawyer (working for the goverment at a pittance) and I can join in your talks about the greedy ones.

[Chip]

My boat storage guy is closing up shop until Friday. That does not make me a troll. I will, however, get the photos here before the weekend's out. Thanks again for everyone's help and photo patience. Happy Thanksgiving!

Chip S.

[Catigale]

Im curious as h*** to see the pix but Im not sure how this helps Chip S get his boat fixed. Applying pressure on a negotiation at the wrong time can make things much worse - the higher the emotional content the more the danger. Im a bit worried it will be inflammatory to the dealer and/or manufacturer and will slow the progress.

Im sure no one would mind if Chip posted them after satisfactory progress on his problem had been made??

[Jack O'Brien]

My goodness! 5 days so far from Chip's initial posting of a problem and 7 pages of irate, well-meaning, nonsense and irrational responses.

FOR GOSH SAKES - GIVE THE DEALER AND MACGREGOR SOME SLACK!

Sorry, all you Chicken Littles, THE SKY IS NOT FALLING.

Don't you have something better to do than second guessing what everyone else should do and how fast they should have done it and what should be done about them if they didn't do it before you thought of it?

My gosh, you've darn near already sued the pants off MacGregor and the dealer, supposed the press is just dying to scoop this story, destroyed the market potential for these boats and grossly underpaid some vapor-endangered poor slob of a fiberglass repair man!

GIVE IT A BREAK AND GET A LIFE!

Certainly, any new owner is concerned with any defect. However, look at this situation rationally.
1) Chances are very slim there is a structual strength issue here. The ballast tank could look like swiss cheese and still provide great rigidity to the hull.
2) The boat is not in danger of even swamping, much less sinking. Just close the ballast valve. (Even some of the hysterical owner/engineering experts responding here should know if you close the valve it stops water coming in.)
3) Fiberglass repairs are common in the boating industry and Corvette Clubs. They can be made much stronger than needed for the slight pressure of water in the ballast tank. A simple pressure test after repair should provide sufficient reassurance of correction of leakage.
4) MacGregor allegedly uses inexpensive labor and, with my boat as an example, has less-than-perfect quality control. But, chances are, the layup laborers for the tank are less experienced than the ones for the hull, so one should not extrapolate the tank defects to the integrity of the whole boat's safety. Probably, the layup of the tank is done as a separate operation, with a different crew, than the joining of the tank to the hull.

So, come on guys, save your carving for the turkey and please, have a great Thanksgiving Day.

[Phil Marriott]

When I bought a brand new car six years ago, it had a minor scratch on the boot. (trunk, I think, in American). No longer than 2.5cm (1 inch) and inconsequential. But the dealer pointed it out and promised to fix it. When I took my pride and joy back to have it repaired, the service manager felt that they couldn't match the colour if they repaired it, and it would never look the same.

I was more than annoyed. After six years of counselling, I think I'm over it.


But on the other hand, a yacht that leaked under normal operating conditions, ballast tank closed or open (either is normal) is a serious concern. Reminds me of a certain tyre manufacturer who had a few blowouts and a small recall on their hands. It is a serious defect, and needs to be treated seriously.

Fortunately, several factors weigh in our favour. This appears to be the first case of it's example that the board has shown (no-one has cited past experiences). MacGregor has not said 'no' to replacing the boat - they want to inspect prior to decision time. Not an unreasonable request. As it appears to be the first of it's kind of fault, if I was the manufacturer I would want to see it. And no-one was injured (although if my wife had been on board, she might have been a little annoyed with me for picking a lemon!)

I'd love to own a yacht with a powerful outboard. I'm a potential Mac26M buyer, but I'm also a potential Odin 820 (Mast 28 ) buyer or Tide 28 buyer. I like this forum for providing me with an opportunity to vicariously experience the Mac, warts, mods, and all.

Thankyou Chip for sharing your experiences - I hope that the MacGregor attitude improves for you and that resolution is speedy. My paint chip no longer annoys me, but I did ask for a replacement vehicle (which was not forthcoming!!!). Without seeing the fault in your yacht, I would still be of the belief that it should be replaced - more for peace of mind than anything.

And this rant was meant not to stir an argument, but to consolidate the previous comment and trust that all posts are taken in good humour (note the spelling) and that we all continue to share our experiences.

Phil.

[waternwaves]

Jack O'

Interesting,
But it seems you employed the most vitriol... use of CAPITALIZATION, Metaphor (Sky is falling) and Exaggeration ("supposed the press is just dying to scoop this story, destroyed the market potential for these boats and grossly underpaid some vapor-endangered poor slob of a fiberglass repair man"! Tho I gotta admit.... I liked that vapor endangered phrase....lol)
Ommision ("what should be done about them") Plagarism (recovering 4 points that had already been addressed) and Supposition (" Probably, the layup of the tank is done as a separate operation, with a different crew,") name calling ("Sorry, all you Chicken Littles") and broad generalizations ("7 pages of irate, well-meaning, nonsense and irrational responses. ") Without specifically identifying which ones you have problems with.


So,
I'll just take a few notes here to provide the rest of the picture..Since apparantly our fervor here is misundertood. (yes, and we have an idea on how thin Macgregors margins are, and how small the factory is)

A. We are the home team, or at least the loyal supporting fans then if you consider the factory the home team. We are the disorganized group of people most supportive of what Macgregor is trying to market, and sings their praises and abilities far too often for our friends and future customers comfort already.

b. Many of us are rocket scientists, Design Engineers, production Staff, Chemists, tool an die makers, biochemists, Bodyshop workers, and craftsmen/women in many fields . Maybe we assume a level of knowledge higher than is present in all, but in most cases there are many many individuals here with incredible experience in boatbulding, aircraft production, custom/semicustomizaton of vehicles, materials, production techniques, etc. so possibly we have high expectations. But we also know, that to do a proper repair for most of the hull integral components.. We need to dissassemble a major part of the boat to get access to those areas for the proper observation, preparation test inspection and repair of this type of item. We are very aware of the limitations of doing this at another Fiberglass repair shop/boat yard vs at the factory (who ultimately is going to have to continue the guarantee of any other shop that does the work).

the Mac factory already has all the tooling , lifts, hooks, rigging, handling and repair materials that exactly match the new boat...not a piece would have to be ordered.... The average boatyard is not set up to quickly and easily disassemble a Mac if necessary( without causing any subsequent damage to it)

C) Many of us have have bought brand new boats...One of the appeals of the MAc is its integrated seamless look, hacking out the floor of the cabin and aft berth is not acceptable repair access technique for most of us, (This is not legal advice here) It is highly unlikely that if the factory suggested this type of repair....it would ever be accepted.

d) we know fiberglass work it is not rocket science..... But there are very few (1) factory that regularly assemble and disassemble MAcs, and if they detected this kind of problem in production, they can ascertain how to incorporate an integral repair, and may have done rework like this that we had never seen in the past.

e) I'll provide another little insight here, in regards to your "Just close the ballast valve. (Even some of the hysterical owner/engineering experts " almost every macgregor I have seen new or used, after one year leaks, on the center bottom of the hull ballast fill Vents/drain On the X's, the elastomer seal deforms and water leaks past. I am not as familiar with the materials used on the M, but little leaks such as on the X boat can easily allow a continuous filling of water. Sorry, but that is observed on real boats...

f) I also have experience glassing between the hull and liner...on an assembled boat. There are spots along the ballast tank that cannot be seen requiring 2 mirrors etc., let alone reached.

I also have copies of macgregors X Warranty, which was issued with mine.. and I wish I had a new copy of the new M warranty, But I imagine the mac warranty is even more clear now.

An I dont want to use this forum to argue semantics of the warranty, and most definitely not give legal advice here, suffice to say I will send a copy of the old warranty statement if someone wants to compare it. But the dealer and factory responsibilities are clear, and that repair/replace wording severely constrains Macgregor and the dealer.. If the factory was going to argue that the ballast tank is not an integral part of the hull, and a separate piece to repair or replace they would most likely have to prove via litgation , and still the provisions in the warranty would apply. And still Because of the magnitude of such a repair MAcgregors experts are going to need access to the boat anyway, hence the strong predisposition to sending the boat back to the factory among many of the forum.

And the basic moral of the story is here.... that any litigation, something no one on this forum has expressed a desire or preference for, would easily cost more than a replacement boat. WE all recognize this. and that is why we so feverishly hope to see a rapid conclusion to this issue. As many have noted, some of floridas best sailing is starting now.


So as far as you being redundant in your writings and also taking up space here with some of your comments...lol (not that I have EVER been redundant or pushy...lol.... just ask Moe, catigale, Chip, Randy, Dimitri, KMclmore, and many others...that have patiently read through my observations and efforts here.....and "Him" of who we do not speak, )

I personally had already addressed the technical basis of your comments #1, 2, 3, found numerous in field differences to your technical claim in comment #2, and personally find your comment #4 interesting, since I would crosstrain staff for multiple hand layup jobs.., and note that for ease of constructions a prefabricated Layup would be most likely (containing the entire Premolded tank assembly ) probably lays right into the hull to be glassed in in one step.

but, that is just IMHO

and BTW, most of us do have other lives........ If that was a general comment you had for those of us who took such an active interest in this particular thread..

Thanks for the other viewpoint... Perhaps we do go into great lengths on minutia and detail........

SO..... hope I brought some extra info to the table, and if not, my humblest apologies.

Darren

[Jeff S]

2) The boat is not in danger of even swamping, much less sinking. Just close the ballast valve. (Even some of the hysterical owner/engineering experts responding here should know if you close the valve it stops water coming in.)

I don't think the boat will swamp since I doubt Chip will use it again until it is fixed. If he does he knows about the leak so certainly he would not open the ballast valve- no one said he would. If Chip had opened the ballast valve assuming it would work properly (as he should be able to expect) it would have taken on a lot of water before he noticed, you are right it probably would not have swamped since he could have closed the ballast valve when he eventually realized the water level in the cabin. Fortunately he noticed it earlier.

So he does have the option to "just close the ballast valve" and use his boat. Of course Macgregor safety labels (at least on my X) say not to use the boat without ballast and certainly not sail without ballast. The M with the fixed ballast is probably a bit safer. I have no trouble motoring without ballast. The boat is supposedly not self-righting (according to MacGregor) without ballast.

The concern is if this is a one time incident or if there is a QC problem and some other unsuspecting new Mac owners have a similar problem. I think Chip has the right attitude and is being appropriately patient to determine what his dealer and MacGregor will do about it. He has every right to be upset that his new boat was delivered with a rather notable defect and should expect a prompt response. Even having to deal with lengthy fiberglass repairs is going to be an inconvienence at best that he should never have dealt with. I think all of us are expressing the frustration we would feel if we were in Chips shoes. No one is saying the sky is falling. The legal talk was simply a tangent from the product liability issues as many times happens on threads.

Kudos to Chip for his good attitude, I hope for the best in his resolution and look forward to hearing the results.

Jeff S


[/u]

[flbum]

I'm another lurking potential buyer who has been reading this thread with interest. I joined this board just to add my voice of conern. I'm anxiously waiting to see how this situation is resolved. Still, I am concerned that Chip's boat even made it through QC at the factory. After the problem has been authenticated by the factory, I would like to hear a Macgregor representative state why this problem would not have been caught by QC. I wonder if other Mac owners might unknowingly have Chip's problem to a lesser degree and it might worsen over time for those folks.

I can understand Chip's frustration of spending that much money for his sailboat, experiencing all that hassle, stress, uncompensated labor, extra expenses, and above all not being able to enjoy the expensive product that he purchased. I hope that Macgregor provides him with some substantial freebees to compensate Chip for his difficulties associated with this serious flaw.

I'm hoping that this problem is handled well as I still wish to own my own 2005 Mac 26M. I want the comfort of knowing that I have a solid warranty and am making an investment and not a gamble in the pleasure that I'll expect to experience from my new sailboat.

[Catigale]

I think all these lurkers are a positive since they make it clear that this issue has visibility to prospective buyers...that has a way of driving any business to move things at a reasonable pace.

If there any prospective buyers lurking who want to send me a private email rather than post please send to (abscate (at) nycap.rr.com )


I will post the total (so far, four I think) to this thread (anonymously with city and State) for ChipS' use as he sees fit.


Stephen