Can of worms; overpowering a Mac

[mikelinmon]

I was asked today about a cutomer using a 60hp misc brand on the Macgregor. Ther are several new interesting motors out there now. The Honda 60, New Suzuki 60, Yamaha 70 and more comming. The factory has tested most 50hp motors finding several equals at the top and one not up to the task. No clear choice for Macgregor other than look for motors that take a large prop, Merc Bigfoot, E-Tec Yamaha high-thrust. The E-Tec 60 changed that with light weight for a 60 and three year service interval. So, we started factory installing that motor. No further testing has been done We just do not know about the new motors. So we recommend only the one we do know about.


First: The written word on max power is 60hp (see the new brochure). The factory installs 60hp E-Tecs on the boat. We have tested that combination and it works. We have no obligation to provide warranty service on boats with more than 60hp. Dealers are free to do as they please as there is no Coast Guard certification on power levels for sailboats. Any dealer has exactly the same right to install oversize motors as any other dealer; but there is no protection from the factory. Some warranty items might be covered, perhaps most items but the protection does not include anything damaged by overpowering, overweight motors, overspeed. Nothing related to oversize motors. Suppose someone falls out of the Mac and it has an overweight or over anything motor, then the lawsuit which would follow will blam the incident on the motor. Some jury will decide based on Macgregors written word, 60 hp max. Guilty, lose everything. We can factory install any motor but we state a 60hp max. A dealer can install what ever they are willing to risk.
As for the fuel usage, I have never seen a fisherman replace an E-Tec to get better range. The very common upgrade on fishing boats is to replace any four-stroke with an E-Tec. It really would be an experiment to put a 60hp other than factory installation of the E-Tec. But, if you do, make sure it has a large prop. If you are going to overpower, put a 70-90 on the boat, any brand. Overpowering is a risk, I have done it many times with Suzy 70hp. But I don’t do it any more. Too much risk.
Yes, any dealer can do it for you. It is their risk and your own. By the way, so far, nothing has ever happened due to overpowering. No warrranty claims denied, no lawsuits. But, you and the dealer (any dealer because no dealer is special) will be taking a risk.
Mike Inmon

[delevi]

Heard the same from Arena Yachts. To me, it sounds like the risk only exists because of the brochure (60hp max per Roger.) It would be nice if it was a weight limit i.e. 400 lbs rather than a horsepower limit. Would eliminate the risk for all and still address the real issue of any needed limit, weight on the transom, not HP.

cheers,
L.

[milest]

hi everybody...
I just want you to pay attention to "torque" not ponnies...The thrust depends on the "torque curve" of the engine.But İt means nothing witout the "gear ratio" because it determinates the torque on the drive shaft...I saw some words "no replacement for the displacement" that's the key....you can't get the same torque from any 4 cycle 800 cc. motor that you get from e-tec 50/60(2 cycle) or new honda 60(high thrust) or bigfoot mercury 50/60.
Safe sailing.....

[waternwaves]

any dealer because no dealer is special

Awwwwwwwwwwww

C'mon mike.....
I thought you, todd and Cheryl were very special dealers.

[Highlander]

Ah the Big Copout !

J

[blue angel]

Thanks Mike for the interesting and helpful first post. I did run accross some unhappy etec users this week in MO, they use 40 to 60 hp engines with jet drives to run up shallow rivers and accross riffles. when they take an etec and put a jet drive on the bottom, the computer is tricked into working wrong, it was just not designed for jet drives, so they take the motor back multiple times, the engine runs rough, sputters coughs, especially the original etecs, the newer ones seem a bit better.

how is this relevant to macs? maybe not too much, but think about it, the engine maker designs the motor to work with a certain size prop, if you put a radically different prop on it the engine with the wrong gearing and computer was designed with the smaller prop in mind for use in smallspeedboats, you may be asking for trouble since you are using the motor for something the motor maker did not have in mind. plus some don't have space for the bigger prop. perhaps the bottom line is to buy the engine designed to do the job with the bigger proper by the factory, as mike says, merc bigfoot, yamaha hithrust, the new honda hi thrust with the bigger prop from the factory and the etec. those were designed to push heavy loads and use bigger props, and provide more docking thrust, especailly the merc and yamaha, and we need that more often then going really fast. would be interesting to see how the new honda 60 and yamaha 70 do though

not sure I want to drive my m model at 30mph anyway, it is simply not that stable at speed and not designed for that. maybe the x might be a bit better

by the way the happiest guys on those MO rivers are the guys who buy merc 60s with factory jet drive, then they work great, the factory designed them that way, the motor computer is designed to work right, etc..

[Highlander]

Hi Guy's

This B/S has more to do with the deal that some boat builder has reached with some eng boat manufacturer to sweaten the pie between them know as Ching , Ching $$$$$$ You look after me & I'll look after you
Guess they don't want people putting them their big 4/ stokes on these boats cause thats gonna cut into their big profit margin sweet deal !!

Cut the B/S & call a spade a spade & dont insult our inteligence
this is my personal opinion not necc. all agree with me . But I do not beat around the bush " Give me a break " I was not born Yesterday or the day before and no I did not just arrive on this planet
This is all about a big $$$$ deal !!!

J
PS If these 60hp E-Tec's produce so much more Torq than the bigger 4/strokes then this hole thing contredicts itself ! because Torq is what its all about . weight is not an issue here 40-60# can easily be accomplished by just adding a big cooler in the cockpit which I do regular
Now on this size of boat if you said 1000# now I might say yes we have an Issue !!

[Doug W]

Re: Can of worms; overpowering a Mac
by blue angel » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:06 pm

by the way the happiest guys on those MO rivers are the guys who buy merc 60s with factory jet drive, then they work great, the factory designed them that way, the motor computer is designed to work right, etc..

Hi Blue Angel, I live a mere 4 miles from the mighty MO river but admit that I haven't put my M into it. Not worried about my prop driven Etec 60 but am terrified of the ramp/current situation here. I'm thinking that my M would be an unholy beast to get back onto the trailer with such a fast sideways current. If the local ramps were in harbours or at least facing down river, it'd be easier.

[raycarlson]

sounds like a little free marketing hype for bombardier's etec division to equalize all the negative chatter on the forum latley from the etec owner who has a brand new 60 that his dealer and BRP support can not get to run, and essentially told him tough luck your stuck with a lemon.also just wondering from mr inmons post and mac factory's reputation as far as reading this board,has there ever been a successful warrantee claim that the mac factory has made good on.I've never read a post yet where a mac owner said that macgregor stepped up and fixed my boat satisfactorly.Maybee we could get a list from mike on the top 10 claims ,what the defect was, and how it was fixed, maybe could be of help to some of us.

[Hamin' X]

Wow, you guys are really hostile toward the factory. No wonder they don't want to read this forum. If you want more questions answered, I would think that asking nicely might elicit a better response. Attacking the poster will only create more hostility. I think that Mike did a credible job answering several questions that have been floated on here for a number of years. As to the new ETEC 60 that someone on the forum is having so much trouble with, I must have missed that topic. Anyone have a link?

~Rich

[Currie]

OT and FWIW - I bought my 2004M second-hand. I found the holes for masthound and spreader bracket had been drilled 3/8" off-center. It caused the mast rotation to seriously favor one direction over the other. I emailed Bill Snedeker at the factory and sent him pics. He agreed it was clearly a factory defect. I told him I thought if I had an undrilled hound and spreader bracket, I could drill them myself to match the offset holes in the mast. He called Garhauer, special-ordered both custom parts, and had them sent to me free-of-charge. The repair was a success - and I'm very happy with the service I got from Bill - especially for a second-hand owner. I posted about it on this board.

RE: Mike and the bigger engines, Mike has been a great resource on this board for many years - I think his advice about oversizing the engines should be taken seriously. I had read a story a good while back on another site about a Mac owner who laid out his boat on its side while taking a turn with a 100+ HP motor. He partially flooded the cabin. I'm sure those on this board with larger engines know how to handle them, but Mike's just giving some warning about the risks involved. Manage your own level of risk. I've got half of the transom torn off mine right now for a mod. I'm sure it's something I'm "not supposed to be doing", but it's a risk that I'll manage responsibly.

~Bob

[Russ]

Wow, you guys are really hostile toward the factory. No wonder they don't want to read this forum.

Hostility would be more of a reason to read a forum and try to alter perceptions. It's nice to get glowing reviews, but I pay more attention to what I'm doing wrong with my customers to try to correct possible problems.
I know the factory sells every boat they can build, but things change as did the housing market. Good customer relations is something every business should strive for.

I'm amazed at how few dealers participate on this forum. It's nice to hear from Mike when he contributes.

This is unquestionably the most popular Mac forum on the net and I know I'm not the only person to buy a new Mac based on what I've read here. If I were Roger, I'd make a huge donation to this forum because Heath has sold a lot of boats for him (maybe he has).

As to the new ETEC 60 that someone on the forum is having so much trouble with, I must have missed that topic. Anyone have a link?

It wasn't a "new" etec, but nevertheless, BRP isn't providing the support one would expect of an existing (barely out of warranty) customer.
After reading this thread, I am SO glad I didn't buy an etec. It may be an isolated case, but it frightened me. Good thing there weren't threads like this about the Mac factory.

[rfrye94760]

Wow, you guys are really hostile toward the factory. No wonder they don't want to read this forum. If you want more questions answered, I would think that asking nicely might elicit a better response.

~Rich

Is that what customer service should be based on though, how nicely the customer asks their question? I think some of the "hostility" comes from what I perceive as an attitude of "What do you want? Look at how big a boat you bought for the money."
This is only my perception and I could be wrong. I do think that someone who builds these boats should occasionally respond. Information from dealers is great but as a consumer I'd like to hear from the builder on some issues. I, for one, would have paid a little more or settled for 24' if it meant I wouldn't see daylight through my hull, chipped liner gel coat and the boat had features like an under seat cooler and window trim as stated on the factory sales video.
I'm a relatively new owner and member of the forum and certainly not an expert sailor. What I am though is a customer who traded my cash for their product. This entitles me to an expectation of quality and customer service. If you can't offer that at this price you need to charge more or build a smaller boat.
As for MacGregor's, not responding to the members about their complete disregard for this forum, it implies an attitude of "I've been paid and your lucky to have a boat."

Mike states:
"We have no obligation to provide warranty service on boats with more than 60hp."
Does that mean even if the issue in question is not related to the supposed "oversized" motor?
It's been ruled on in the courts and hopefully it won't ever come to that for any owner or dealer but regardless of what the sign says, it's up to a Judge to decide who's responsible for what if an agreement between parties can't be reached.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

If the factory really wants to know how their boats perform with bigger motors they should be actively talking to the many owners here who have been using bigger motors for many years. We are the ones with the experience, not the one dealer who happens to have a desk at the factory and from what I've read has never even installed a bigger motor on a Mac.

Also, while Mike may not talk about it, but I know Roger gets plenty of direct feedback from his largest dealer in the country who has sold Macs with 70's on them for years. Blue Water Yachts has sold hundreds of boats with Suzuki 70's on the back and has a very large group of happy customers with bigger motors.

While I am ranting, I also feel it is inappropriate for Mike to preach in this forum as if he is an employee of MacGregor Yacht Corporation. As I under stand it, he is an independent Mac dealer just like all the other ones who happens to have been given a desk to use at the factory by Roger. He is boat sales AT the factory, NOT boat sales BY the factory. He needs to clearly state his status here so people are not misled into thinking he speaks FOR the factory.

Other dealers who post here clearly identify themselves as dealers, Mike should too.

[Bobby T.-26X #4767]

this was written in a previous thread when we discussed same topic at length...

"The Mac 26 has a "manufacturer's recommendation" of outboard horsepower, not a rating. If the legally prescribed "rating formula" was applied to the dimensions of a Mac 26 hull, that horsepower limit would exceed MacGregor's recommendation (50 hp) by about 200 more hp. Note that many of the 18-footer hulls that ARE regulated, carry ratings of 200+ hp.

USCG Overview wrote:
The rating of maximum power capacity became a matter of U.S. Federal Regulations in the mid-1970's following the adoption of the U.S. Boating Safety Act of 1971. This dictated that all outboard boats of less than 20 feet in length must carry a capacity plate stating the maximum number of passengers, maximum number of pounds for passengers and gear, and the maximum horsepower of the outboard that should be installed.

The regulation did not make it illegal for the operator to exceed the rated values, only that they were required to be stated on the boat's capacity plate. Exceeding the numbers was a matter of personal liability in case of an accident, and in some states, for additional violations, in the event on an on-water arrest (for other violations) by marina patrol


External Article (by Insurance Broker) wrote:
Bigshot, forgive me, but as an Insurance Broker, I have to correct or clarify your statement, which could or could not, be true.

1. If one intentionally misrepresents HP to your Agent, and gets into an accident, your statement could be true. Only when an insurance contract is issued under false pretenses, can coverage be denied.

2. Assuming one is honest (a good thing to be in a legal contract like insurance), and tell your Agent your HP, if he's good, he can find you a company that will insure your boat with it's stated HP, regardless of published limit. The insurance Co has issued you a contract and they are obligated to defend and pay on your behalf, up to liability limit of the policy. It's now their problem, not yours. Because of increased risk, they will charge more.


Another External Article wrote:
I've yet to see "stupidity" exclusions in liability insurance policies. Even if you break the law by exceeding the speed limit or DUI, they pay out, as long as there's a valid contract between you (i.e. no misrepresentation by you up front, i.e. driving record, boat power, etc)."

Bob T.
"DāBob"
'02X w/ '04 90-TLDI (14" x 11 pitch)
Dinghy Motor: '06 2.5-Suzuki