Sailing Performance, stability,and safety
Sailing Performance, stability,and safety
I currently own a C&C Redline 25 and actively club race on Lakes st.Clair and Erie in Ontario, Canada. The Redline is a trailerable boat tha has very nice sailing characteristics although it lacks the headroom and comfort amenities that we crave. I enjoy the trailering aspect of the boat which allows me to put her in early April and take out in December. I have looked closely at the Hunter 26 and Catalina 25 but we keep coming back to the MacGregor. My wife loves the idea of motoring quickly when the weather gets ugly and the comfort of the interior (spacious, 6' headroom). I am sure you have all endured the snears and geers of the sailing world due to the boat's powerboat-appearance and questionable "sailability". Can anyone offer some information regarding the sailing performance of the 26's? ie. ability to point/upwind performance, downwind performance, healing, safety during a blow, PHRF rating. I realize I am asking lots of questions but my crew are very concerened about my decision!
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argonaut
- Captain
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:23 pm
- Location: '97 26X, Yammy 40 4s, Central Fla.
Do you mean the 26X, the 26M model, or the older 26S/D?
The older poptop 26 "D" (daggerboard) or "S" (swinging centerboard) are pretty decent sailiboats on all points, without the spaciousness of the X or M models. You'll see reasonable PHRFs assigned to them. They share certain elements of the newer boats like easily steppable masts. The "S" and "D" models are conventional displacement hull designs and carry your average kicker.
As far as the 26X and current "M" model. These boats sail, and they power. They heel quickly, but stiffen as the water ballast comes into play. Early reefing is common knowlege. They won't sail as fast as your Redline or likely anything in your racing fleet. They are non-displacement hull designs, and will run away from them all under power. If equipped with a 50HP outboard they're capable of making 8-20mph. Rigging is simple, you'll see many of us have to add vangs and adjustable backstays you probably have out of the box on a C&C, or a new Cat 250.
All of these models share:
o Water ballast.
o Shallow draft.
o Lightweight centerboard, non-metal keel.
o Relatively light (compared to a Catalina 25) construction (thinner glass layup and rigging).
o Low maintenance interior. (no teak to polish...) and exterior (ditto, no teak). ally low maintenance oriented construction
They are (as I'm sure you've heard already) a compromise, all boats are.
For my part I had no social standing to be concerned about losing.
Club racing is a fun activity but it's competetive, about squeezing a half knot here or one less tack there.
I'm a cruiser. I want performance too, most everyone here tweeks their boats, but I think all understand the performance envelope and have accepted that a high freeboard, lightweight trailerable won't be as fast or as stable as a C&C, under sail.
I have no interest in being out in the middle of the Gulf by myself. This craft makes my Admiral happy to be aboard because we can make good time when we need to, it's interior is bright and roomy, and if the kids come along, after they get bored going 5 kts under sail I can drag them on a kneeboard until they pass out. Or I can just anchor and fish for supper.
You have the feel for lake racing, and Ontario is a big piece of water. Anything feels small out in the middle of that. You'll find people here who sail these things who can tell you nearly any technical detail about this boat,and have sailed them in nearly any condition, but in the end you need to sail one to see if it's a fit for you.
For me, I sacrificed a couple of knots of speed to be able to be where I wanted, with whom I wanted to be there with.
This group being what it is I'm sure somebody is bound to be near to you and would probably be willing to let you tag along.
Let us know where you sail & I bet you get an invite.
The older poptop 26 "D" (daggerboard) or "S" (swinging centerboard) are pretty decent sailiboats on all points, without the spaciousness of the X or M models. You'll see reasonable PHRFs assigned to them. They share certain elements of the newer boats like easily steppable masts. The "S" and "D" models are conventional displacement hull designs and carry your average kicker.
As far as the 26X and current "M" model. These boats sail, and they power. They heel quickly, but stiffen as the water ballast comes into play. Early reefing is common knowlege. They won't sail as fast as your Redline or likely anything in your racing fleet. They are non-displacement hull designs, and will run away from them all under power. If equipped with a 50HP outboard they're capable of making 8-20mph. Rigging is simple, you'll see many of us have to add vangs and adjustable backstays you probably have out of the box on a C&C, or a new Cat 250.
All of these models share:
o Water ballast.
o Shallow draft.
o Lightweight centerboard, non-metal keel.
o Relatively light (compared to a Catalina 25) construction (thinner glass layup and rigging).
o Low maintenance interior. (no teak to polish...) and exterior (ditto, no teak). ally low maintenance oriented construction
They are (as I'm sure you've heard already) a compromise, all boats are.
For my part I had no social standing to be concerned about losing.
Club racing is a fun activity but it's competetive, about squeezing a half knot here or one less tack there.
I'm a cruiser. I want performance too, most everyone here tweeks their boats, but I think all understand the performance envelope and have accepted that a high freeboard, lightweight trailerable won't be as fast or as stable as a C&C, under sail.
I have no interest in being out in the middle of the Gulf by myself. This craft makes my Admiral happy to be aboard because we can make good time when we need to, it's interior is bright and roomy, and if the kids come along, after they get bored going 5 kts under sail I can drag them on a kneeboard until they pass out. Or I can just anchor and fish for supper.
You have the feel for lake racing, and Ontario is a big piece of water. Anything feels small out in the middle of that. You'll find people here who sail these things who can tell you nearly any technical detail about this boat,and have sailed them in nearly any condition, but in the end you need to sail one to see if it's a fit for you.
For me, I sacrificed a couple of knots of speed to be able to be where I wanted, with whom I wanted to be there with.
This group being what it is I'm sure somebody is bound to be near to you and would probably be willing to let you tag along.
Let us know where you sail & I bet you get an invite.
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Frank C
Just a guess, but if you're coming from a performance sailing background, the 26X is probably destined to disappoint. IMO, it's a good choice:
- * for family versatility so the point-to-point times of sailing can be enhanced by motoring quickly.
* for a power boater who wants to add the depth of learning to sail when time permits.
* for a novice boater, because it permits quick motoring success on the water, and sailing too.
* for any boater who wants a great weekender, great interior accomodations at very attractive pricing.
Thank you for the responses. Now I am really confused (and torn). Performance or family? Performance or family? Arrgh!
Argonaut: If I were to go this route I would buy a new 26m. I am sick and tired of maintenance and replacement of rigging and hardware. However, for about $35,000 Canadian I can find a nicely equipped 28-30 footer, but probably built in the 70's or early 80's.
Was the MacGregor most owner's first sailboat? Are most MacGregor owners converted powerboaters?
Argonaut: If I were to go this route I would buy a new 26m. I am sick and tired of maintenance and replacement of rigging and hardware. However, for about $35,000 Canadian I can find a nicely equipped 28-30 footer, but probably built in the 70's or early 80's.
Was the MacGregor most owner's first sailboat? Are most MacGregor owners converted powerboaters?
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Dimitri-2000X-Tampa
- Admiral
- Posts: 2043
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:36 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Tampa, Florida 2000 Mercury BigFoot 50HP 4-Stroke on 26X hull# 3575.B000
Dan, I traded a cruising keelboat (O'Day 272LE) for a Mac 26X. I've written a lot about it and you can see that I think the 26X is a perfect family boat. Here are a couple of the links:
http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/viewt ... light=oday
http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/viewt ... light=oday
The Mac is actually more challenging to sail than the keelboat and I find that it gets used a hull of a lot more due to its versatility. The 9 inch draft is fabulous for Florida waters and you can probably beat some other boats when running near downwind with the centerboard up. Soon, I'll be getting a spinnaker and hoping to plane under sail with it.
I do like going fast as I have been windsurfing and laser sailing for most of my life...but I can still do that, in fact, one of these days, I'm going to strap a windsurfer onto my Mac and go cruising with it. Also being that I am lucky enough to live near one of the country's racing hot spots (St Pete), I occasionally crew on a friends racing boat (a Wavelength 24)...so, you really can have it all if you want.
Oh yea, I was also getting really tired of all the maintanence on the O'day..which had a ton of teak on it, etc. Trailerability is a big plus also....sure was nice to be able to easily pull the boat out when we got hit by 4 hurricanes this year.
http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/viewt ... light=oday
http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/viewt ... light=oday
The Mac is actually more challenging to sail than the keelboat and I find that it gets used a hull of a lot more due to its versatility. The 9 inch draft is fabulous for Florida waters and you can probably beat some other boats when running near downwind with the centerboard up. Soon, I'll be getting a spinnaker and hoping to plane under sail with it.
I do like going fast as I have been windsurfing and laser sailing for most of my life...but I can still do that, in fact, one of these days, I'm going to strap a windsurfer onto my Mac and go cruising with it. Also being that I am lucky enough to live near one of the country's racing hot spots (St Pete), I occasionally crew on a friends racing boat (a Wavelength 24)...so, you really can have it all if you want.
Oh yea, I was also getting really tired of all the maintanence on the O'day..which had a ton of teak on it, etc. Trailerability is a big plus also....sure was nice to be able to easily pull the boat out when we got hit by 4 hurricanes this year.
Responsive to:
"Was the MacGregor most owner's first sailboat?"
Probably. As a guess.
However, not entirely. I started sailing in 1970, have chartered sailboats in the 25 to 33 foot range, and have owned 12+ sailboats from Windsurfer size to 26 feet, including 3 Macs (Venture 17...1980-88, 26D...1988-2001, and 26X...2001 to date).
Why the X? Rather than anything else, new or used, on the market? Because no other boat known to me fits our needs anywhere near as well( and we only run a 9.9 4 stroke motor). Other available boats all had some feature we found objectionable.
The key is to get the boat that fits you best, knowing that others would choose differently.
"Was the MacGregor most owner's first sailboat?"
Probably. As a guess.
However, not entirely. I started sailing in 1970, have chartered sailboats in the 25 to 33 foot range, and have owned 12+ sailboats from Windsurfer size to 26 feet, including 3 Macs (Venture 17...1980-88, 26D...1988-2001, and 26X...2001 to date).
Why the X? Rather than anything else, new or used, on the market? Because no other boat known to me fits our needs anywhere near as well( and we only run a 9.9 4 stroke motor). Other available boats all had some feature we found objectionable.
The key is to get the boat that fits you best, knowing that others would choose differently.
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Frank C
Food for thought, especially if your decision is family-sensitive.
Take a look at both a new M model and late-model X (and I still recommend drive-testing them if at all feasible). The interior layouts differ markedly, and you'll want the one that pleases them the best. Also, you'll not need to worry about rigging repairs on the used boat. These rigs don't get the wear 'n tear that you've been accustomed to, and it should be obvious when you look it over.
Take a look at both a new M model and late-model X (and I still recommend drive-testing them if at all feasible). The interior layouts differ markedly, and you'll want the one that pleases them the best. Also, you'll not need to worry about rigging repairs on the used boat. These rigs don't get the wear 'n tear that you've been accustomed to, and it should be obvious when you look it over.
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argonaut
- Captain
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:23 pm
- Location: '97 26X, Yammy 40 4s, Central Fla.
Dan.
Compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
You just mentioned a 28-30 footer in you're price comparison. I'm confused by that because you started this thread talking about a 25 foot trailerable Redline. It's possible to trailer the 28-30 foot keelboat option you just mentioned but I doubt you could do it yourself.
A Catalina 30 (27,28, etc) and a Mac 26 both sail but they have different personalities. I'd never live aboard a Mac 26. On a Catalina 30, that would be possibile. A Cat 30 is heavy, has holding tanks, pressurized water system, a diesel inboard, diesel fuel tanks, a prop-drive shaft and through-hull to maintain, 5' or so of draft, much more sail area, large exterior storage areas and a spacious cockpit, lots of teak , and room for a dual burner stove/oven combo. It has more systems and associated maintenance than a factory-new Mac and you won't be knee-boarding behind it. Mac takes a minimalist, less-is-better approach to boat systems IMO. Lots of folks decide they want pressure water and spend $100 for electric sink pumps. Lots just don't care and leave their boats alone. In your price range a C30 will also probably be a 10-15 year old boat and many of these parts are going to have to be or will have been replaced.
Your Mac 26M is a shallow draft, water ballasted, unsinkable trailerable. It is IMHO the largest practically trailerable boat in a small category of water ballast trailerables including the Catalina 250, Schock 2030, & Hunter h26/260. Reference the trailer discussion here and read a bit and you'll see these boats being towed by a wide variety of vehicles because they're relatively light, certain minivans and most any half-ton pickup will do the job.
Get a bigger tow vehicle and you can also drag around a Precision 23, a Seaward 26. a Catalina 25, or an Oday 25, 26,27, or 270. Dimitri sailed a 270LE I believe. You're beyond a half ton pickup and a single axle trailer in this class though, and I don't think you'll be singlehanding it either. The Cat250 and H26s I looked at were also double-axle trailer boats.
Macs are often singlehandedly launched and retrieved, a fair amount of effort fro a daysail but a guy I met did it for a couple of years alone with a 26S using a Dodge Caravan. A minivan is not what you'd expect to see as your average boat hauler, but Lake George was only a couple of miles, the S is a bit lighter, and the boat also drives your vehicle decision if you're going to tow and launch.
Can't help you with the family -vs- performance question, every man chooses. There's a general inverse relationship between boat length and times used per year. My cousin's Cat 30 sits in it's Lake Ontario slip all year, in the sail season it 'll see action maybe once a week for a few hours, with maybe 3 or 4 weekenders a year. They are club racers, and they're in a social group of keelboat owners who slip year-round in a particular port. (so, yacht club,yacht club dues, yacht club food minimum per month, yacht club parties, race schedule, Christmas party, etc) . They spend a great deal of time maintaining the boat, it's exposed teak, it's inboard motor, it's plumbing, etc. Hey, it's a 19 year old boat. It works for them though, they got into sailing through folks that do that and the trailerables they know and sailed were 16 footers.
I have the option to slip or trailer keep my boat, trailer to other cruising waters then sail/motor, I have options when hurricanes threaten (4 this year), and it's not costing me a dime when it's resting alongside my house. When I work on it I walk around the corner of my house instead of driving to the marina.
Given unlimited money all 30 footers are still limited by displacement hull speed physics, you simply strive to achieve hull speed as often as possible and get through the course as quickly as you can. Races are often won by tactics employed by boats that are smaller and slower, therefore I consider a Mac a performance boat but I don't think you'll see them club racing much unless they're handicapped fleet races using PHRFs to let dissimilar boats compete.
Plot your priorities, do your research, but above all, compare apples to apples. Eliminate Macs as a possibility by getting aboard one because sailing's such a subjective experience for both you and crew. My fine admiral and I yell "yipee" when heeled over hard on a reach, you might never get your crew on board again. You shouldn't judge a boat, a car, or a... well I digress... only by looking at it. I've seen Mac digs that start with "... I've never sailed one myself, but...." For that reason I'd also pay heed to Frank's suggestion to look/try the older model 26X boats too. Rigging and performance are similar but there are enough layout differences that you may prefer the older layout and save money. If you sail Ontario or Erie there are bound to be Macs closebyand Mac owners like to have any excuse to go out and usually aren't sitting around polishing their teak on the weekend. You'll feel a lot better having experienced one.
There's a member list on this website but if you posted a new thread title "anybody in Toronto (or whatever...) area have a Mac I can see" for example I bet ya that you'd get invites. I'd be shocked if there weren't lots of 'em in Ontario too, I've seen 26Xs and Ms advertised fro sale there on sailboatowners.com.
Compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
You just mentioned a 28-30 footer in you're price comparison. I'm confused by that because you started this thread talking about a 25 foot trailerable Redline. It's possible to trailer the 28-30 foot keelboat option you just mentioned but I doubt you could do it yourself.
A Catalina 30 (27,28, etc) and a Mac 26 both sail but they have different personalities. I'd never live aboard a Mac 26. On a Catalina 30, that would be possibile. A Cat 30 is heavy, has holding tanks, pressurized water system, a diesel inboard, diesel fuel tanks, a prop-drive shaft and through-hull to maintain, 5' or so of draft, much more sail area, large exterior storage areas and a spacious cockpit, lots of teak , and room for a dual burner stove/oven combo. It has more systems and associated maintenance than a factory-new Mac and you won't be knee-boarding behind it. Mac takes a minimalist, less-is-better approach to boat systems IMO. Lots of folks decide they want pressure water and spend $100 for electric sink pumps. Lots just don't care and leave their boats alone. In your price range a C30 will also probably be a 10-15 year old boat and many of these parts are going to have to be or will have been replaced.
Your Mac 26M is a shallow draft, water ballasted, unsinkable trailerable. It is IMHO the largest practically trailerable boat in a small category of water ballast trailerables including the Catalina 250, Schock 2030, & Hunter h26/260. Reference the trailer discussion here and read a bit and you'll see these boats being towed by a wide variety of vehicles because they're relatively light, certain minivans and most any half-ton pickup will do the job.
Get a bigger tow vehicle and you can also drag around a Precision 23, a Seaward 26. a Catalina 25, or an Oday 25, 26,27, or 270. Dimitri sailed a 270LE I believe. You're beyond a half ton pickup and a single axle trailer in this class though, and I don't think you'll be singlehanding it either. The Cat250 and H26s I looked at were also double-axle trailer boats.
Macs are often singlehandedly launched and retrieved, a fair amount of effort fro a daysail but a guy I met did it for a couple of years alone with a 26S using a Dodge Caravan. A minivan is not what you'd expect to see as your average boat hauler, but Lake George was only a couple of miles, the S is a bit lighter, and the boat also drives your vehicle decision if you're going to tow and launch.
Can't help you with the family -vs- performance question, every man chooses. There's a general inverse relationship between boat length and times used per year. My cousin's Cat 30 sits in it's Lake Ontario slip all year, in the sail season it 'll see action maybe once a week for a few hours, with maybe 3 or 4 weekenders a year. They are club racers, and they're in a social group of keelboat owners who slip year-round in a particular port. (so, yacht club,yacht club dues, yacht club food minimum per month, yacht club parties, race schedule, Christmas party, etc) . They spend a great deal of time maintaining the boat, it's exposed teak, it's inboard motor, it's plumbing, etc. Hey, it's a 19 year old boat. It works for them though, they got into sailing through folks that do that and the trailerables they know and sailed were 16 footers.
I have the option to slip or trailer keep my boat, trailer to other cruising waters then sail/motor, I have options when hurricanes threaten (4 this year), and it's not costing me a dime when it's resting alongside my house. When I work on it I walk around the corner of my house instead of driving to the marina.
Given unlimited money all 30 footers are still limited by displacement hull speed physics, you simply strive to achieve hull speed as often as possible and get through the course as quickly as you can. Races are often won by tactics employed by boats that are smaller and slower, therefore I consider a Mac a performance boat but I don't think you'll see them club racing much unless they're handicapped fleet races using PHRFs to let dissimilar boats compete.
Plot your priorities, do your research, but above all, compare apples to apples. Eliminate Macs as a possibility by getting aboard one because sailing's such a subjective experience for both you and crew. My fine admiral and I yell "yipee" when heeled over hard on a reach, you might never get your crew on board again. You shouldn't judge a boat, a car, or a... well I digress... only by looking at it. I've seen Mac digs that start with "... I've never sailed one myself, but...." For that reason I'd also pay heed to Frank's suggestion to look/try the older model 26X boats too. Rigging and performance are similar but there are enough layout differences that you may prefer the older layout and save money. If you sail Ontario or Erie there are bound to be Macs closebyand Mac owners like to have any excuse to go out and usually aren't sitting around polishing their teak on the weekend. You'll feel a lot better having experienced one.
There's a member list on this website but if you posted a new thread title "anybody in Toronto (or whatever...) area have a Mac I can see" for example I bet ya that you'd get invites. I'd be shocked if there weren't lots of 'em in Ontario too, I've seen 26Xs and Ms advertised fro sale there on sailboatowners.com.
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baldbaby2000
- Admiral
- Posts: 1382
- Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 8:41 am
- Location: Rapid City, SD, 2005 26M, 40hp Tohatsu
- Contact:
My wife and I just got a 26M. We've owned and sailed several types of boats ranging from small to large: ice boats, X-boats, M scows, C scows, E scows, hobie 16 and 18, Mac 25, 32' Hunter and a 46' Hylas in the Virgin Islands. I've always liked racing. We like to go to the Lake of the Woods LOWISA in August for racing/cruising and are looking forward to seeing how the 26M does. I haven't seen any credible numbers for a handicap yet on this boat. It seems to sail fine but we haven't had it long enough to say much more. I'm impressed on how well it sails on the main alone. Our Mac 25 was not good at all on just the main. We were sailing on Pueblo Res, CO alongside a Mac 26S which is considered a relatively fast boat for it's class. We caught up with him and he seemed to be sailing well.
We can rig and launch the boat quickly which is a big plus. It also seems to pull well behind our Suburban. We moor or slip the boat for most of the season but also like to trailer a few times a year. Our 40hp 2-stroke Tohatsu seems to be fine for motoring; we wanted the 50hp injected version but it doesn't perform well at high altitudes. So far we're happy with our decision.
We can rig and launch the boat quickly which is a big plus. It also seems to pull well behind our Suburban. We moor or slip the boat for most of the season but also like to trailer a few times a year. Our 40hp 2-stroke Tohatsu seems to be fine for motoring; we wanted the 50hp injected version but it doesn't perform well at high altitudes. So far we're happy with our decision.
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delmitch2
Mac M Performance
Dan,
If you can make the drive to Port Colborne some time you would be welcome to come out for a sail on our 2004M. We have owned a few boats, starting with a Laser 2, an O'Day 22, then a Douglas 31 which we lived aboard and took to Key West and Back.
We only just got our Mac in late August. We had a few days on Lake Erie off Port Colborne, as well as a run from Grimsby across to Toronto Islands; unfortunately, really only had about 2 hours of good sailing. I can say I was pleasantly surprised, but obviously much different from my Douglas. As far as the cost and comparable boats, as much as I loved our Douglas, there isn't anything out there that will offer the versatility of the Mac. If you look at the Main section of this website, you will see a thread regarding stern seats. There are a couple of photos of our Mac, both taken within 10 days. One is at our local beach on lake Erie, the other at Hanlons Point, Toronto Islands. Next summer the 1000 Islands, North Channel, then down to the Keys for the winter.
Anyway, the offer stands. Answer back if you want to get in touch.
Mark M.
If you can make the drive to Port Colborne some time you would be welcome to come out for a sail on our 2004M. We have owned a few boats, starting with a Laser 2, an O'Day 22, then a Douglas 31 which we lived aboard and took to Key West and Back.
We only just got our Mac in late August. We had a few days on Lake Erie off Port Colborne, as well as a run from Grimsby across to Toronto Islands; unfortunately, really only had about 2 hours of good sailing. I can say I was pleasantly surprised, but obviously much different from my Douglas. As far as the cost and comparable boats, as much as I loved our Douglas, there isn't anything out there that will offer the versatility of the Mac. If you look at the Main section of this website, you will see a thread regarding stern seats. There are a couple of photos of our Mac, both taken within 10 days. One is at our local beach on lake Erie, the other at Hanlons Point, Toronto Islands. Next summer the 1000 Islands, North Channel, then down to the Keys for the winter.
Anyway, the offer stands. Answer back if you want to get in touch.
Mark M.
New 26M owner-Mediterranean
Hi guys,
I am just joining this forum, from Tarragona, you know, by the Mediterranean see, just by Barcelona.
I just bought a 26M, new, and it is suposed to be here by the end of the month. I am excited, it is my first boat. I have been sailing for about 8 years with light boats (Europe Class, Vaurien, 12 to 16 feet).
I just wanted to say hi.
And I hope to learn from you guys.
I am just joining this forum, from Tarragona, you know, by the Mediterranean see, just by Barcelona.
I just bought a 26M, new, and it is suposed to be here by the end of the month. I am excited, it is my first boat. I have been sailing for about 8 years with light boats (Europe Class, Vaurien, 12 to 16 feet).
I just wanted to say hi.
And I hope to learn from you guys.