M tiller mod

[mastreb]

Hi Guys,

So after sailing this boat for 18 months, I still hate the wheel helm. I've been a tiller sailor for fifteen years, and the wheel, steering assembly, and rudders just do not give me the feedback I'm used to.

I'm strongly considering the following major mod this winter:

1) Pull off the ETEC-60 and sell it (pays for the rest of the mod). Great motor, just don't need it because I frankly don't plane.

2) Remove the helm and steering system completely, plate over. Remove the rudders, brackets, and steering system completely. plate over and seal any openings.

3) mount a pivot to the transom engine well, with a large center rudder and tiller. The tiller will go through the now open transit. I'll have to lift it a little to go hard over, but that's rare. I would be using the stock tiller from another similar sized boat. I'm debating whether I'd remove the tiller for trailering or devise a hinge mechanism for the pivot bearing. Perhaps I could use the assembly from the 26D if I could find one.

4) Mount port and starboard 6hp outboards at the current rudder mount locations on lifting jackplates. This would be fixed rather than pivoting--steerage is still accomplished primarily with the tiller, but also by varying power to the dual motors.

GPS and compass go to a bulkhead mount on the forward cockpit.

I'm soliciting advice and criticism as to the wisdom of this. I'll be keeping all the parts and would rebuild it to a stock hull before selling it, or in case I change my mind.

[NiceAft]

I say, why not It's your boat. Play with it as you wish. After testing it, you may just give incentive to others.

Now that being said, why not just sell the boat and purchase a used tiller sailboat? The only thing you will loose is trailerability. Do you make use of that now with your You will pay more doing it this way, but you will get a better boat.

Before anyone post's any less than desirable comments towards me, I love my Mac I don't think it's a bad boat, there are just better built ones on the market. All honors to Rodger Praise be his name


Ray

[mastreb]

Now that being said, why not just sell the boat and purchase a used tiller sailboat? The only thing you will loose is trailerability. Do you make use of that now with your You will pay more doing it this way, but you will get a better boat.

Yes, trailer-ability is a must--slips here average over $500/mo. and I can't justify the cost all year. I very nearly bought a Hake Seaward 26RK, but they're a florida builder and just getting the boat here would have cost $6000, on top of it's $54,000 sticker. In all it was twice the price of a Mac.

[windypatrick]

Sir,

You have already courteously replied to several of my queries and I genuinely appreciate it. While I am new to sailboats and their mods, I've done aircraft for 25 years. Restorations and rebuilds of warbirds from Stearmans to L-39 jets, great fun and great fun to fly. I haven't even started in on mods for my 26x as I am catching up with the first 14 years of ignorance of the the PO's.

If your change is permanent, I would sell the boat instead, and get something fine with a tiller. A thing, (like a macGregor) can only be roughly what it was designed to be. I've watched guys spend a fortune on their warbird mods mostly to only limited benefit.

If you can make it a 'bolt on' change, I agree, have a blast! Being able to change it back keeps you from being disappointed with a perfectly fine boat. With the changes you will become a 'test pilot' with the risk that entails. I am curious how it will round up with only one larger rudder...stuff like that. It would be awesome to hear about your journey! Life is short, Go for it (if a bolt on)!

Kindest Regards, Patrick

[mastreb]

If your change is permanent, I would sell the boat instead, and get something fine with a tiller. A thing, (like a macGregor) can only be roughly what it was designed to be. I've watched guys spend a fortune on their warbird mods mostly to only limited benefit.

Sage advice. Pintles, gudgeons, and tiller heads are relatively inexpensive, as are tillers and rudders. The right way to do this is to make no permanent changes until I've testing the sailing capabilities, which can be done easily enough by dismounting the outboard, clamping a gudgeon to the transom, and keeping the stock rudders up.

If it works well, I'd decide how to proceed.

[bartmac]

Your dislike of the wheel is understandable...as a sailor of a whole range of tiller boats I must say it still doesn't seem right and in emergency situations I still have to think about it.We have already gone to the lower hp motor ie 15hp on our X and was seriously considering the wheel removal.Our main reason would be ease of sailing and room...ie lots more room in the cockpit.However as I've now installed a sportspilot on our wheel...cheap on Ebay...I probably forgo the wheel removal...but interesting someone else was considering it.Maybe the bad handling of our boat initially also shyed me off the wheel as the direct input of the tiller is what I was used to...our X was extremely weather helmed but have now tuned it mostly out...I guess the instant position feedback of a tiller was what I was missing

[Divecoz]

Aside from all the rest of the installation issues... How will the hull respond to a single rudder? ( A Lot Of The New High End Race Boats now resemble our boats / hulls for a reason.. but have as well twin, though canted rudders) Will this rather flat wide hull respond to a single rudder that is still easily retractable?
Will a 6 hp kicker empty the ballast?
IIRC you have the Large M/B SUV, if that's correct and if you can retrieve your boat with full ballast at your chosen ramp. Then that vehicle will no doubt, have what it takes to yank close to 6000 LBS up the ramp far enough to drain the ballast.( so that's a plus )
I feel it would be prudent to keep in mind , when you make all these mod's , that you may want to or need to, at some time , put the boat back to its original configuration? It may not be relevant to you , but I would " guess " that this mod will have a very negative effect on the boats resale value.
I believe we are all aware , that major mods to recreational toys ( Cars Motorcycles etc etc )at the resale end of your ownership can reduce its resale value considerabley. Not that you couldn't find someone who loves what you did , just that IMHO its going to be a LOT harder to find that individual..
The Vast Majority of people looking to buy an X and certainly an M are not looking to buy a boat with a 6 hp motor...
IMHO.. when all is said and done? This boat will NEED to look like "That's How It came, From The Factory"... Be it your skill and ability or the people you pay to do it ...The End Result , needs to be of a Very High Quality..

[RobertB]

I am all for "personalizing" a boat. I do consider how changes I make will affect resale value (this from a guy who still owns the first car he bought back in 1987)

The mod you are considering, if not reversable, will make your Mac essentially worthless as far as resale value. Is this an acceptable outcome?

[Québec 1]

Would you sell your Mac if you did not like it?
Q1

[mastreb]

Well, the admiral's opinion is the same as the wise counsel here: Don't break the boat in a manner that makes it impossible to sell. I'd like to think that this could be done in such a way that the boat could be returned to stock, but in reality I'd have a crate of parts and a hull that I'd be trying to convince someone to put back together themselves.

My two biggest issues are the room the helm takes in the cockpit and the inability to -effectively- single hand with the wheel. I've got the stern rail seats, which mitigate some of the room issue, but it's much easier to single hand a tiller. A $1500 wheel pilot will both solve that problem and increase the value of the boat, and it's a much simpler mod. I just need to pull the trigger on that.

[Phil M]

You have forgotten how hard it was for you to learn how to use a tiller. Just watch someone who has never used a tiller before, and maybe you will remember.
Using a wheel is a habit you can get used to, even if you find yourself going back to tiller mode now and then. Switching over is not that bad. I did it.
Suck it up, buttercup.

[Whipsyjac]

Have you tried a larger wheel? For the cost of coming up with all the linkage etc, you could probably afford an Edson folding wheel. It should give you the sailing experience you want and the cockpit access you desire when not under way. I plan on making some plywood templates for the different wheel sizes up to 24" and see which I like best before I spend the $$. Larger wheel would/should give you better rudder control and allow you to sit on the high side when heeled. Large enough and you could single hand forward of the pedestal with the main in one hand and the wheel in the other.

[jbousquin]

Well, the admiral's opinion is the same as the wise counsel here: Don't break the boat in a manner that makes it impossible to sell. I'd like to think that this could be done in such a way that the boat could be returned to stock, but in reality I'd have a crate of parts and a hull that I'd be trying to convince someone to put back together themselves.

My two biggest issues are the room the helm takes in the cockpit and the inability to -effectively- single hand with the wheel. I've got the stern rail seats, which mitigate some of the room issue, but it's much easier to single hand a tiller. A $1500 wheel pilot will both solve that problem and increase the value of the boat, and it's a much simpler mod. I just need to pull the trigger on that.

Hey Mastreb,

I have had the opposite sailing-learning curve. Having sailed growing up on a Cal 39 (with a helm), it was somewhat challenging when I got my "first" boat that was mine, a 9' Boston Whaler Squall sailing dinghy with a tiller. Getting the Mac, with her nice wheel at the helm, has been a treat for me.

As far as single-handing goes, these have made all the difference to me:

http://garhauermarine.com/catalog_process.cfm?cid=37

I do agree that the angle that's manufactured into these causes them to bend up under stress. I straightened one of mine back down, and am still evaluateing whether I want to do the same with the other. Full discussion here:http://www.macgregorsailors.com/forum/v ... 50#p243068


Cheers, Joe

[EZ]

While I understand that steering feedback is much better with a tiller, I disagree on single handing. My M has a tensioner on the wheel which makes single handing relatively easy. Perhaps even easier than if I had a tiller.

I just put enough tension on the wheel so it can't be backdriven, then trim the sails and balance the CLR and COE. From there take my hand off the wheel, sit back and relax, and let the wind and sails control the boat.

IMHO, I don't understand the logic of removing the E-tech to make a powersailor a pure sail boat with a tiller. Wouldn't it be easier to just get a 26C? I think the 26C is supposed to sail a lot faster than a X or M.

Now if you could set it up to have tiller steering while still retaining the Etec 60, that would be a nice setup. I have no idea how it could be done, but it would be nice.

[Russ]

...the inability to -effectively- single hand with the wheel.

What specifically is difficult. All my lines lead aft to the helm. I have no trouble single.

Removing the motor on a Mac M/X takes a compromise boat down to less than a compromise. Now you have a boat that doesn't sail well and motors even worse. I wouldn't do it.