daggerboard extension

A forum for discussing boat or trailer repairs or modifications that you have made or are considering.
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delevi
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Re: daggerboard extension

Post by delevi »

Now what about the older Macs which weren't water ballasted? As I recall, their keels weigh in the 600-700 lb range. What are the chances of one of those fitting in the daggerboard trunk of an :macm: ??? Would be a pretty cool mod if one could get a hold of one of these keels and make it fit. Would probably give the same righting power as the water ballast, allowing a sailor to be about 500 lbs lighter if not using water ballast (empty boat 2550 lbs + 650 lb keel= 3200 lbs vs 3700 lbs ballasted boat w/o keel.) plus having the option of adding the water ballast in heavier air and have a very stiff boat. If a Mac could fly full sail in 25 knots wind, it would really haul 8) Think about it. 2100 lbs ballst on a boat weighing 4350 lbs. That's a ratio of 48.3% :o :!: :o :wink:
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beene
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Re: daggerboard extension

Post by beene »

I like those numbers.
I would go to a local shop and see if they would be interested in a side project making me a lead keel of some kind, but I worry about:
- adding weight when it comes to motoring, and slowing her down, as I already want a 140 to go faster still
- I wonder how much strength is in that trunk, add a 600 or more lb keel, and hit a rock.... hmmmm
- I would have to install a 12v winch to haul her up
- would I have to reinforce the top deck most likely, to support the raising system
- would have to figure out what line to use for holding and hoisting that keel, most likely steel line like shrouds....

Everything I come up with around improving this ballast ratio, leaves me scratching my head about the impact on boat strength and powering speeds.....

Can I help it if I want everything? LOL

G
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delevi
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Re: daggerboard extension

Post by delevi »

Can I help it if I want everything? LOL
Me too. Only solution I can come up with is using the Mac as a trailor sailor and getting a keel boat for ocean work. Just have to find some $$$
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mastreb
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Re: daggerboard extension

Post by mastreb »

Currie wrote:I'll let Leon weigh in (pun intended) on his experience. I know he reported good results in other threads. But maybe this is interesting in the meantime.

A while back I was looking at doing a pumpable water ballast (to either the port side or the starboard side). The ballast would be 150 lbs. of water in glassed-in tanks under the rear berth and salon seats. I ran a bunch of numbers to see how much righting action it would add compared to people in the cockpit. Here's one of my pics...

Image

The whole point was to calculate the center of boyancy, and mass of any added weight...people, water ballast, or a weighted daggerboard. Here's some things I came up with.

(BTW - I did the same test for other parts of the cross-section - not just the cockpit - and combined them )...

1.) The water ballast adds about 3 times as much righting (at 30º heel) as a person in the cockpit (150 lbs water same would be the as a 450 lb man in the cockpit).
2.) If caught on the wrong side (unintentional jibe?), water ballast is neutral (at 30º heel) as far as adding or subtracting more heel. Notice how much a person caught on the wrong side contributes to heeling versus the water-ballast.
3.) A weighted daggerboard exceeds that and is more than 3 times as effective as people in the cockpit. Plus it doesn't need pumping when you tack/jibe. One thing though, lead only weighs about 90% of it's "land weight" when it's in the water, so that probably brings us back to an even 3X factor.

At this point I gave up on the complexity of pumpable water ballast and joined the weighted daggerboard fan-club. The mod is a couple of seasons out though. So if any of this is close to right. Leon's 150 lbs of weight in the bottom 15" of the board (that's what I set the pic to), should right the boat about the same as 450lbs of people in the cockpit when the boat is heeling 30º.

(FWIW - I calculated the center-of-boyancy by filling the under-water area of each station in the factory diagrams with a little checkerboard hatch pattern, then picked the spot in each where there was the same number of hatches on the left side as the right - Oy :P)

Cheers :-)

~Bob
Resurrecting an old thread, there's a very simple way to do this:

1) Use freshwater tank bags, so there's no modification necessary and its freshwater storage that will conform to the shape of the storage area. Removable bags is probably ideal. You could also just pack water bottles into the area.
2) Load both sides with 150 lbs. of water.
3) Don't bother transferring anything at all on a tack. The water on the low side is neutral to heel at 30 degrees, and the water on the high side counters heel to 450 lbs. of force.

So according to Currie's calculations, simply storing your fresh water (or anything heavy, such as extra chain, blackwater tanks, whatever) along the sides of the hull and as low as possible will contribute to stability.

The only difference between this and the built-in ballast tanks is that they're optimized to be neutral to heel at 20 degrees, where the hull is at its lowest wetted area and therefore lowest drag.
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Hamin' X
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Re: daggerboard extension

Post by Hamin' X »

What do you mean, "neutral to heel"?

~Rich
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mastreb
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Re: daggerboard extension

Post by mastreb »

Hamin' X wrote:What do you mean, "neutral to heel"?

~Rich
I mean that at 20 degrees heel, the Ballast tank on the leeward side is directly below the center of buoyancy, and therefore neither contributing to further heel nor restricting heel. The tank on the windward side is doing almost all of the heel resistance (there is some center tank). This is why a half full tank is just as dangerous as no tank: there's very little restricting heel when the water can flow from one side to the other.

Added ballast water at the edges pointed out by currie are neutral to heel at 30 degrees.
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Hamin' X
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Re: daggerboard extension

Post by Hamin' X »

Ah, got it now. Thought we were going to get into the "Water ballast only works when it is lifted out of the water. When it is below water level, it has zero ballast effect, because it is the same weight as the water surrounding it." argument. Of course, this has been debunked many times.

When I think of what you are saying though, I wonder if the leeward tank does not do more work after it crosses the CB? After all, it is now on the same side as the windward tank. Won't they both be trying to right the boat? As a matter of fact, isn't the leeward tank contributing to the tenderness of the boat, until it gets to the CB? Isn't this why the keelboat is stiffer, because the ballast is concentrated along the CB line? Just wondering.

~Rich
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mastreb
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Re: daggerboard extension

Post by mastreb »

Hamin' X wrote:I wonder if the leeward tank does not do more work after it crosses the CB? After all, it is now on the same side as the windward tank. Won't they both be trying to right the boat?
It contributes to stability after crossing the center of buoyancy, yes. But a very small amount compared to the more windward tank because...
As a matter of fact, isn't the leeward tank contributing to the tenderness of the boat, until it gets to the CB? Isn't this why the keelboat is stiffer, because the ballast is concentrated along the CB line? Just wondering.
Also exactly correct. The only point to make here is that the effect is magnified by horizontal distance from the CB--it's a lever arm, and like a seesaw, the farther you are from the fulcrum (center of bouyancy), the more force you provide. The force increases with horizontal distance, but because the boat is rotating, the length (and, therefore, the force) increase as a sine function, not a straight linear increase. So there's very little force at all when near the CB, and a lot when far from it.
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Hamin' X
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Re: daggerboard extension

Post by Hamin' X »

I guess that my point is that placing water ballast farther abeam may not decrease heeling, because one is countering the other and it will take more heel for the leeward tank to cross the CB and help the windward tank. Seems like the farther from centerline that you move the ballast, the more heel that it takes to become effective. This is different from the inertia that it induces, of course, as this will increase with distance from centerline and act as a stabilizing factor. But, this will only slow the heeling and not reduce it's severity. Or, so it seems to me.

~Rich
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Ixneigh
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Re: daggerboard extension

Post by Ixneigh »

Ok. Have twin deck mounted daggerboards with five hundred pounds of lead in each one. But They can hinged so the leeward one stays down but the windward one can be hoisted up at right angle to hull there bY having the 500# lead on a six foot lever arm!! Use an additional shroud to do the hoisting for extra rig support.
-Waits- Huh? Huh? You could even force Ill behaving passengers to ride on the end of the raised board for additional righting moment. My back of the rehab flyer calculations tell me that this would allow an extra 45,000 SF of sail to be flown.

But seriously.
Some of these ideas sound great and I am all for a bit more performance but I still worry about the strength of the boat and trunk. How much can you safely add without going on an endless and expensive cycle of beefing up every other item now that one is stronger. Kind of like a plane, that I have compared these boats to in the past. You can't just make the tail fin stronger, cause now the bracket needs to be stronger. and whatever THAT'S mounted on needs the be stronger... Pretty soon your piper cub is turned into a jet liner.
ESP a macgregor. I highly doubt there is an ounce of unneeded or extra strength anywhere in the boat!!
Has anyone asked Roger his opinion on this mod? I mean off the record, just his Personal opinion.

Ixneigh
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mastreb
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Re: daggerboard extension

Post by mastreb »

I'm pretty certain the bottom of the hull can store 150 lbs. of water safely, and the rigging is already designed to push against a few thousand pounds of heel resistance.

What I'm talking about isn't a mod so much as advice on where to store things to minimize heel rather than contributing to it.

And hey, I like the idea of the hinged leeboards!
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Re: daggerboard extension

Post by robbarnes1965 »

Ixneigh wrote: -Waits- Huh? Huh? You could even force Ill behaving passengers to ride on the end of the raised board for additional righting moment.

Ixneigh
like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_WEdni7XWg
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mastreb
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Re: daggerboard extension

Post by mastreb »

Good heavens, there's a YouTube video for everything!
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Ixneigh
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Re: daggerboard extension

Post by Ixneigh »

Neat video. Imagine if that dagger board where at deck level and twenty feet out!
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Re: daggerboard extension

Post by mastreb »

Ixneigh wrote:Neat video. Imagine if that dagger board where at deck level and twenty feet out!
It would just be renamed "ama" at that point :D
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