Genoa or spinnaker for an old venture 21

[stone_love]

I am the owner of an old venture 21 with the W/21 markings on the sides/hatch cover of my boat.

I have been told they didn't put spreaders on these older ventures.

Well, i have spreaders and it looks as if i got lucky and all of my standing rigging has been replaced in recent years.

I'm getting ready to put her on the water but have just a few mor small details to work out before she sees the water.

First of...this will be mostly lake sailing. I would love a huge spinnaker or genoa to sail on the lake on really calm days (very common in this area).

I would like to know more abour running a spinnaker or genoa without the pole. Can it be done? any recomendation of size to use doing this without a pole?


Not planning on any type of motor on this boat so getting enough air on light days to pull in/out of the cove can/will be important.

The interior of this boat was in poor shape when i got her...when pulling everything to repair some bad spots in the hull i beefed up the transom/stays/chain plates with fiberglass reinforced marine plywood.

I've even gone as far as adding reefing points to the main sail.

once i get the feel for her limitations is this an ok boat for doing some coastal sailing in good weather?

Im not too concerned with the rough ride as she's gotta ride a little better than a skiff/hobie/kayak but i want her to be able to move fast enough to get to cover when i see storms coming in the distance.

[tessmar]

I don't know anything about these guys, but http://thesailwarehouse.com/cgi-bin/web ... l&cart_id= lists two Genoas in their standard inventory for $500 or less. They both are the same dimensions. The biggest of the three headsails my boat came with is at least as big I think (just got it a couple of months ago and it is my first watercraft). Two of the sails come 60-80% of the way up the forestay when rigged...the biggest goes a lot higher, maybe 85-90%. My boat can be rigged as a cutter (though I do not use the cutter stay but lash it to the mast and sail it as a sloop). I only rigged all the sails in my drive when I first got the boat to see what they were and to be sure I understood how things worked, and then I attached them to the rear cutter forestay (which is how the previous owner sailed it). It looked awkward and all of the sails when rigged that way were more than 100% (the clew came back behind the mast). I've only sailed it once and with what I consider the standard jib, which was exactly 100%. The other sails are bigger so they are both Genoa-like but I have not raised them since and don't know what aspect ratio they would be on the sloop rig.

Oh...and my mast does not have spreaders. The boat is a 69 Venture 21.

[mastreb]

In general, a genoa is a more general purpose sail, and it doesn't necessarily require a whisker pole. If the question is which of the two sails to get and it's your only headsail, definitely get the Genoa. You can't really use a spinnaker at all when pointing.

Also consider getting a roller furler if you don't have one. That will let you use the Genoa as a typical jib as well.

[tessmar]

The Sail Warehouse also lists Genoa models for furriers

[Catigale]

I was actually eyeballing 8 foot oars on sale at WM yesterday for moving my on lakes or low wind conditions...I think that's a better solution for the smaller boats

[K9Kampers]

...eyeballing 8 foot oars on sale at WM yesterday for moving my on lakes or low wind conditions...

For reference, the sculling oar in the pic is 7'-5", ymmv...

[Steve K]

I like the Drifter.

This is a hank on sail, cut much like a Genoa, that hanks on the forestay, just like the other head sails. It is cut slightly fuller than a Genoa and is made from .75oz spinnaker cloth. It works great in very light airs.

I would also suggest getting some very light (but strong) rope for your head sail sheets. With regular double braid, I would have situations where breeze was so light that the sail wouldn't fill, because the weight of the sheets. I got some New England Ropes, "Flight Line" on sale and now use this for my head sheets. It's very strong and very light. It does not soak up water, therefore stays light, even if you happen to dip it. I use this set of sheets with all my head sails now.

I built the drifter from a "Sailrite" kit, using an $89.00 Brother zigzag sewing machine. I had minor sewing experience prior to doing this sail (a few repairs to sails and a set of sail covers). The Sailrite kits are pre-cut and marked with seam lines and include everything you'll meed to complete the sail. The included instructions are clear and detailed. It was a fun project.
It also give me great satisfaction, when flying this sail, to look up at it and think of how I put it together myself

I do plan on building a spinnaker, at some point. However, the drifter is a great way to go for very light air. It can be used for all points of sail and is very easy to handle. I have pondered whether a bigger drifter would be a good idea too. Mine is about a 150% and I was thinking a 185%, or bigger, with sheets run to the stern, just might be a fantastic sail.

Best Breezes,
Steve K.
Mac 26D "Three Sheets"

[Steve K]

Oh!
Also meant to say.
The Sail Warehouse is great.
I also like "The Sail Store". I got my main from them (Sail Store) and it is a high quality sail. (FX sails)
It is full battened with a loose foot and double reef points. It was a better price than the similar sail from the Sail Warehouse. (on their web site, click on Macgregor sails)

So now you're asking, why I didn't build my own main sail from the Sailrite kit also Well, it becomes a price point issue. The pricing between the Sail Store, finished main and the Sailrite kit were very close and my off time was much more valuable then.

Best Breezes,
SK

[tessmar]

Steve K
Thanks for the information about Sail Warehouse and other sources.

The 21 has such a low displacement that, even in very light morning air on the reservoirs on the east side of the CA central valley I had no problem getting it to do a fairly respectable speed. And of course in the afternoons, or up higher in the Sierras, or if I even did take it down to SF Bay, light air is the last thing I'd be facing. I have not yet used either of the two bigger headsails that I got with the boat as the one I consider the "standard jib" has been more than adequate. I was happily surprised to find that what I had read about the 21's responsiveness turned out to be true so far.

[stone_love]

In general, a genoa is a more general purpose sail, and it doesn't necessarily require a whisker pole. If the question is which of the two sails to get and it's your only headsail, definitely get the Genoa. You can't really use a spinnaker at all when pointing.

Also consider getting a roller furler if you don't have one. That will let you use the Genoa as a typical jib as well.

If she already had a roller furler that would be ideal...a new roller furler kit is over 1100 bucks...if you know of a cheaper way to set it up i think i'll stick with the simplicity of hank on.

[stone_love]

...eyeballing 8 foot oars on sale at WM yesterday for moving my on lakes or low wind conditions...

For reference, the sculling oar in the pic is 7'-5", ymmv...

love the set up, what kind of oar locks you using? side or top mount?

[stone_love]

I like the Drifter.

This is a hank on sail, cut much like a Genoa, that hanks on the forestay, just like the other head sails. It is cut slightly fuller than a Genoa and is made from .75oz spinnaker cloth. It works great in very light airs.

I would also suggest getting some very light (but strong) rope for your head sail sheets. With regular double braid, I would have situations where breeze was so light that the sail wouldn't fill, because the weight of the sheets. I got some New England Ropes, "Flight Line" on sale and now use this for my head sheets. It's very strong and very light. It does not soak up water, therefore stays light, even if you happen to dip it. I use this set of sheets with all my head sails now.

I built the drifter from a "Sailrite" kit, using an $89.00 Brother zigzag sewing machine. I had minor sewing experience prior to doing this sail (a few repairs to sails and a set of sail covers). The Sailrite kits are pre-cut and marked with seam lines and include everything you'll meed to complete the sail. The included instructions are clear and detailed. It was a fun project.
It also give me great satisfaction, when flying this sail, to look up at it and think of how I put it together myself

I do plan on building a spinnaker, at some point. However, the drifter is a great way to go for very light air. It can be used for all points of sail and is very easy to handle. I have pondered whether a bigger drifter would be a good idea too. Mine is about a 150% and I was thinking a 185%, or bigger, with sheets run to the stern, just might be a fantastic sail.

Best Breezes,
Steve K.
Mac 26D "Three Sheets"

didn't consider size of sheets, what diameter sheets are you running on your drifter? And how many feet should i consider getting since i currently only have sheets for main .

[Steve K]

didn't consider size of sheets, what diameter sheets are you running on your drifter? And how many feet should i consider getting since i currently only have sheets for main .

I have 8mm.
The "Flight Line" is in metric sizes. This is 5/16, which is the same size as original sheets and halyards on the Macs.

I suppose you could go to 1/4 for a light air sheet with no trouble. I know a couple others who have. I stuck to the 5/16 and have an eye splice in each one. This allows for quickly connecting to whichever sail you want to use. You also have the hand with these. The 1/4 is pretty thin and may not be as comfortable in the hands. Also with the 1/4 sheets for light air, you'd need a larger set of sheets for heavy air. With the 8mm Flight Line, it can be used as a general sheet, but is still light enough for very light air use. I keep them on deck and shackle the eye spliced ends to the sail, making for very quick changes. Of course, when moving down to the jib, they have to be re- run inside the shrouds. However, this is easier (for me anyway) to leave the tails (bitter ends) in the cockpit, un-clip from the sail and run them inside the shrouds from the other end.

As I mentioned, I have two sheets (one red, one green, actually), both having an eye splice on one end. Each one 30 feet long. This allows for sheeting from the stern, if I need to. I would say you want your sheets, at least the length of the boat. For using a cruising spinnaker, you'd want them longer.

I also prefer having two separated sheets, rather than one long one, with an eye in the center. When doing a sail change, one can go forward and unhook the lazy sheet from the sail, while still on tack. My helm person (The Admiral) and I practice this, when doing sail changes and I can almost get the sail down and get another one up, through a tack, if I'm on my toes.
She'll hold the boat dead up for a minute, while I get the sail swapped out and hoisted. Then usually, we'll still have enough forward momentum to fall off to the other tack.

hope this was helpful.

Best Breeses,
Steve K.

[gedaggett]

The one thing that has not been said is the difficulty of running a spin single handed. It usually takes someone at the bow to raise it (unless you have a sock) but then because it is so light often times you get wraps and fouled lines that require you to go forward. I personally don't want to be going forward single handed with a chute up, that is just asking for a knock broach on a V21. The other thing is the limited points of sail with the Spin. Personally I would recommend going with a good Genoa or even looking into a "code 0" sail. With a wisker pole and a good size main and headsail combo going wing and wing the Venture 21 should make decent down wind movement and you would still have the pointing without having to drop the chute and raise the Ginny. Just my 2 cents.


Gary

[stone_love]

thanks for the tip, i'll rule out the spinnaker since ill be doing 99% of my sailing solo...my 4 yr old won't be much help for a while on deck.

He assisted me with installing some hardware, he wanted to use a screw driver so i figured i'd let him hold a screw in place in the cockpit while i crawl under to tighten it down.

By the time i got under the cockpit he was lauging and my screw was free spinning.


I crawl back out to find him throwing my brass/SS hardware from the bag into the yard..was a fun game for him.

So yes...i will be sailing single handed...the admiral will probably just be watching the clouds and playing with whatever extra sheets he finds laying around the boat.