2002 Tragedy involving the loss of lives?

[Tony D-26X_SusieQ]

In order to have an effect the centerboard would have to be down before you started motoring. Since gravity lowers the centerboard, once you got a little speed up the water passing under the boat would prevent the cb from dropping till the boat stopped, and therefore it would not become a problem. Part of the cause of that July 4 tragedy could have been the wake from another boat passing too fast and too close trying to get to the ramp first. It gets a little hectic after those fireworks shows.

[Chip Hindes]

Forward motion wil not prevent the centerboard from dropping.

I was on Lake Champlain the week this happened, and have read everything I could find on it.

The centerboard may or may not have been down, but as I recall the witnesses all stated this happend at low speed. The lake was calm, there was no hurry to get back to the dock, and there were no wakes from other boats involved.

Several adults were on the upper foredeck. The boat was unballasted.

The Mac driver fired the motor, cast off the lines from the raft up, and started to move forward. He made a turn, and the boat simply rolled over.

This is not hard to picture. With no ballast, too many people aboard, and several adults on the foredeck, the boat was unstable. As it began to roll, those not in the cabin grabbed anything they could reach to avoid being pitched into the water: the mast, lifelines, stanchions, shrouds, or anything else they could get ahold of, and by doing so, they made things worse. As if it mattered. With no ballst once it goes past the balance point it's not self righting anyway. As those in the cockit and on the deck went into the water, probably the first thing they attempted to do was grab something and try to climb higher on the boat, thereby causing it to continue to roll. The mast and the RF geeny will be buoyant until they fill with water, which probably doesn't take more than a few seocnds.

As soon as the rail was in the water, the cockpit and then the cabin probably filled very quickly. As the boat rolled upside down, everything not tied down ended up on the cabin ceilng, still more weight low in the water, trying to hold the boat upside down. The motor is top heavy as well, until it's upside down.

Without ballast and, with the cabin full of water, the most buoyant part of the boat will be the empty ballast tank. The weight on the cabin ceiling, the mast, genny and motor, all acting like a fixed ballast, heavy keel. It's likely in this condition the boat is more stable upside down than right side up.

[Mark Prouty]

The defense attorney said:

Without the ballast, the thing is like a canoe

Does anyone know the ultimate outcome of this? What sentence, if any, did the operator get?

The defense attorney would certainly have challanged the boat design. If it could be proven that the boat was inherently unstable, his client could acquitted and walk. Of course, MacGregor would be sued. Did this ever happen?

What incredible responsibility we as boat operators have. It would be very difficult to live with the death of these two children on your conscience. They were only 4 and 9 years old. When boating, I always have children on board and can't imagine it.

The only good that could come of this is to remind us of the limitations of our boats and to not drink while operating it. I am grateful this in the only incident of its type.

[Frank C]

... What incredible responsibility we as boat operators have. It would be very difficult to live with the death of these two children on your conscience. They were only 4 and 9 years old. When boating, I always have children on board and can't imagine it. ... I am grateful this in the only incident of its type.

Not exactly ... a Mac 26X also capsized on Erie several years ago. Don't recall about ballast or waves, perhaps in somewhat rougher conditions. The not-so-amazing similarity ... there were 7 or more adults aboard. One of them, an elderly man, drowned as a result of the capsize.

Further, during summer 2000 on SF Bay, a 26X with novice skipper capsized/turtled near the Alameda Estuary, result of a passing ferry's sizeable wake. I sail these same waters with heavy commercial traffic causing frequent large wakes of tugs, tankers or ferries. Skipper must observe, and avoid taking such on the beam, or it can easily roll the Mac by 30 degrees or more. Witnesses reported that this mast was dipping (turtled) and later assessments suggested possibly partial ballast was a contributor to the problem. No loss of life in Alameda event but too many crew with 7 adults aboard ... (see linked article here)

The vessel captain (in USA waters) is fully responsible for his crew. Look on the portside pedestal for a placard that warns to the effect: Ballast is required when more than 4 adults aboard. Personal opinion, I believe the boat is too small for any more than four adults, perhaps a couple of kids too. Even my dog wears a life-vest, as well as all adults when we are on the Bay (waters < 60 degrees F.). I am especially cautious with children aboard. I would be devastated if my grandson (age 3) or neighboring infant (age 1) were imperiled aboard my boat. I constrain boating activity appropriately (significantly) when kids are aboard, and supervision is intense and continuous.

[Chip Hindes]

Look on the portside pedestal for a placard that warns to the effect: Ballast is required when more than 4 adults aboard.

A lot of people have mentioned this placard. What year is your boat, Frank? My boat is an '01 purchased new and picked up in September '00, and it has no such placard, nor has it ever. I'm not sure if mine is an abberation or if the boats didn't have this until later in the run.

The same statement is mentioned in the owners manual, but frankly I skimmed right over this when I read it the first time. I was excited, in hurry to get past all the warnings to the part about actually sailing the boat. Most of the warnings on most products are an insult to the intelligence of most humans with half a brain (don't use your hair dryer while taking a shower, and like that) and I figured most of those on the Mac were the same.

Maybe I was lucky. To date I've never had more than four adults in my boat, but some day it's likely that I will. Quite frankly I may not have ever known such a warning existed until I became aware of the tragedy which is the subject of the original post. Now at least I know what to do and what not to do.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

My 2000 model was built in March and it has the 4-adult warning label on the console. It sounded from the report that the capsized boat may not have had this label either. Perhaps the factory missed more than a few. I think the boat would have been quite stable with 8 adults and 3 kids if noone was on the deck...although I suppose this is marginally overloaded. I wonder why is it that Mac's don't come with placards that say what the maximum payload should be...like powerboats. Without putting anyone on the deck, I don't think the boat would be very comfortable with more than 6 adults on board. Now, with kids, you could probably go up to 4 adults and 6-7 kids and of course you would want to fill the ballast. My normal crew and gear probably run around 600-800 lbs. I think you could safely run this up to around half a ton without overloading the boat too much... keeping a lot of the weight down low.

[TonyHouk]

From what I was told the Coast Guard does not require sailboats to have a rating placard. I think it has to do with the rail meat thingie??? Happy sails, Tony

[Frank C]

... A lot of people have mentioned this placard. What year is your boat, Frank? ...

Mine is a 2000. As mentioned above, the factory may have been inconsistent in attaching the stickers in past years ... bet they're a mantra now, as they should be.

Carrying crew "on deck" is clearly too high to protect the CoG. Carry them in the cockpit, and your naturally comfortable limit would be 5 maximum. Keeping others in cabin below is safer, but hardly hospitable, eh? I had five adults aboard one time ... and that time only.

[Chip Hindes]

I wonder why is it that Mac's don't come with placards that say what the maximum payload should be...like powerboats.

I'm not certain but I believe it has to do with length alone, not with power versus sail.

Same as with maximum HP capacity. I believe the break point is somewhere around 22 or 24 feet.

[mtc]

I apologize for bringing this thread back to light, considering the sadness it certainly will invoke. My reasoning is that we're all heading out for the sailing season again and as we all know, we skippers are responsible for our crew - period. Think Captain Kirk.

For what it's worth, I've functioned as a safety professional for over 20 years; it's what I was paid to do. Im no expert as there's always more to learn, just passionate about survival; lifes a great thing, dont miss a day.

Never a fleeting thought, or passing request, safety has always been top of mind for me, much to the irritation of those around me. . . dont touch that, be careful, watch that edge, do you know what that is . . .

That doesn't mean we all get close to the line at times. Hopefully, we're paying attention to the line, and more importantly even know where the 'line' is.

As for the article and the incident, please take the time to read this news report (again) regarding the deaths of two children. From what can be ascertained from the report, there were certainly contributing factors to the capsizing of the 2000 Mac. The first and foremost was the skipper's irresponsibility to the safety of his crew. Safetys a funny thing its an instant given if an act was unsafe; if you were hurt = it was unsafe. Duh. Regardless of the adults desire to be unvested, they should have been. Good to see the kids were. If the boat was tidied up, all halyards stowed neatly, all loose ends secured, perhaps the tangling wouldnt have happened. Well never know.

The report states that there were 8 adults, 3 children, and two dogs. Rotwillers or toy poodles? Imagine that little boat even being able to maneuver at all with all that weight. The skipper was not a long distance runner, either. All said, the boat was tremendously overloaded and probably at all the wrong places.

When I drove my Super King Cab F150, I felt like I could just drive around and not worry about someone crashing into me. I was just as careful, but didn't have that fear like I had when driving my '69 Triumph GT6+ at only 1,800 pounds. I think the seats in the 150 weighed that. I drove defensibly, like everyone was out to get me intentionally or not.

My point is, keep safety always on top of mind. Keep your kids vested, keep your ballast full when appropriate, follow not only Macs safety directions, but also any you know from intuition. I have never once hurt myself where I didn't know I was close to or crossing the 'line'. Never. Whenever teaching safety classes, I always remind people to use their third eye - your safety eye. It's the eye that sees the line, but only if youre looking.

I've grown up on the water and personally knew people who have drowned, sadly. The boat capsizing didn't cause the drowning - it was the water. As ridiculous as that sounds, getting crushed in my little Triumph wasn't the reason I would have died - it would have been the object that I impacted with. Don't blame the boat; it was the skipper's responsibility for not foreseeing the danger. The article also mentioned that the skip was previously a ward of the state for conviction of selling stolen aircraft parts. Didn't see that line either?

Please be careful out there. Watch for the danger. Keep your lines secured, flotilla secured, items stowed, crew where they should be and trained, children under control, safety gear at immediate reach, Pay attention to your gut instincts - it will never let you down.

By the way, dont forget that youre certainly at much greater risk driving to the ramp and can much more easily get creamed by someone in a monolithic SuperDuperKingCab F150. . .

Stay safe.

Michael

[Red Coat]

As an experienced police officer who has had more than their fair share of dealing with some pretty stupid people. I can safely state that the only thing more dangerous than a stupid person having care and control of any vehicle or vessel, is one who is stupid and under the influence of drugs and or alcohol! Anyone can buy a boat....

Larry

[Catigale]

MTC - we are rehashing this thread but I for one am all for it..this is not a topic where you can 'waste' bandwidth

(and I plead guilty for my fair share of "blue hulls are faster posts...")

couple things on the Champlain incident

I always felt the OWNER was partially culpable for loaning his boat to a relative to take out 10 people...while I cant say this with certainty I have not read a single report of him going over the boat, covering operation, etc - all the evidence pointed to a simple handover of the keys.

Take home message - Dont loan a MAC to someone without thinking about a checkout, some experience, going over stem to stern on operation, etc. A powerboater used to a 26 foot vessel is going to expect something so heavy that you couldnt imagine rolling it - ergo the incident.

Its hard to imagine not getting your kids out knowing they were stuck underneath but please remember:

1 They didnt know where the kids were at first - as silly as that sounds, the shock of the incident would take several seconds to recover.

2 I recall that someone made repeated dives to try and find them in inky blackness - I went under Catigale once at night to see what it was like and will never do that again casually - all I can say is try it and then report back.

3 There was some thread discussion about the PFDs hanging the kids up underneath - this is NO justification for not PFDing up the kids!!! Thats like the "i dont wear seatbelts 'cause Im afraid of getting trapped' argument - you dont hear that anymore as Dr Darwin has culled them all out.

Watch out for those little ones, and RIP to the two young sailors taken from us too young.....

[Chip]

I skimmed the posts, so forgive me if I missed something. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone with children on board would ever leave the dock without an entirely full ballast. Correct me if I am wrong, but the boat is always more stable (when right side up in the first place) with a full ballast than a partial or empty ballast, right? And it's self-righting, within limits, when fully ballasted, and not self-righting with empty ballast, right? So why is anyone talking about powering around with an empty ballast with kids or other passengers on board? How can you ever justify the increase in speed and fuel efficiency of powering around with people on board with an empty ballast? The thing should always be filled when you have other people on board. If a skipper (like myself) wants to risk it with an empty ballast, so be it. What am I missing?

[Chip Hindes]

What you're missing is that it's certainly possible and not particularly dangerous to power at high speed without ballast, as long as you exercise other precautions. If you ever had an idea you might try to pull a water skier, or even a wakeboard with your Mac, you won't be able to do so with ballast.

Even at lower speeds, you can can safely power without ballast, use less engine power and therefore less fuel.

I know of no power boat that is self righting, so in that way the Mac is no different than any other power boat. The differences are the Mac has quite a few more seats than its capacity. It's big, tall, lightweight (without ballast) and sits high out of the water for its capacity. It's relatively easier to overload the Mac and even easier to make it unstable if the weight is carried too high; i.e., on the deck rather than in the cockpit or in the cabin.

So, the precautions for no ballast operation include keeping the number of passengers reasonable, the weight low, be extra carefull in high winds and/or heavy/beam seas. At speeds over six knots, make sure you retract the centerboard and rudders.

[Chip]

I'm confused. If no power boat is self-righting and if the Mac is no different in that regard, do you mean that the mac is only self-righting when the mast is raised? In other words, is the mac self-righting with ballast full and mast up, but not otherwise? Thanks.