autopilot - wheel drive versus tiller drive

[kadet]

Installation not complete, near last step , glue wooden mount to inside of hull. Skipper2C may have a good suggestion about motor. TP seems to be working hard to turn motor & rudders while tied to dock. I do intend to leave tiller pilot connected as much as possible. Will comment when complete, have to work a 5 nite hitch.

Glad to here you are almost there

Motor up or down?

Those ST1000s have reputation for being noisy, so what is defining it working hard? If you can put an amp meter on the circuit and see how much current it is drawing. If this is maximum for it's spec, then it is working hard

I disconnect my motor from steering when sailing and have it tilted up more to save drag and wear on TP than anything else. Those extra kilo's of thrust may make a difference. Close hauled over canvassed in 12-15knt of wind requires a lot more grunt than tuning the motor ever has to overcome weather helm. TP handled those conditions just fine.

One thing I did notice under power is it can make a shaper turn than I am willing to under power at 14knt, destination change on chartplotter while forgetting I was on autotrack put into a 180 turn with what felt like 40 degree of heal Most exciting.... won't make that mistake again. Teach me to wear my glasses and read those warning popups more closely

[Cajun Mike]

Well I Messed up !!
The Raymarine ST1000 Does Not Dis-engage when powered off.
Will not work as a below deck installation .
Neither will the ST2000. Will hope they will let me return for the SX tiller pilot.
Sorry to members of group for premature comments of $ 800 autopilot.

[BOAT]

Keep at it Captain Mike - many of us are thankful that you are providing all the information - I have been following these threads about autopilots because I want one but still I can't figure out which way to go - wheel or tiller! Your threads are important to us.

I would like an outopilot that would be inside my wheelhouse if possible.

[Seapup]

Ordered a Raymarine tiller pilot TP1000 & wireless remote S100 , from well known national marine supply house , less than $800 including shipping.

There are a few old threads discussing using the 1000s, they have to be disconnected everytime. On an X with the exposed steering its not perfect, but does work. I think catigale has one.

TP seems to be working hard to turn motor & rudders while tied to dock.

I don't know the physics behind it but on my X with the teleflex rack the wheel will turn the rudders/motor with very little pressure applied to the wheel. If I try to "steer" the system backwards though (pushing rudders to move them out of the way while on the trailer) it seems to take a massive amount of force. It seems a wheel pilot would have a mechanical advantage over a tiller drive.


I am sure I will get some laughs on this one....

I teach middle school robotics, lego NXT. The NXT cpu is easily programmed and about $100, the compass sensor about $50. Some guys have even used them with gyro sensors to autopilot DIY drones. Anyways, hook one up with a belt and motor to the wheel like the older auothelms and you would have cheap autopilot that even talks to you with a british accent:|

[BOAT]

Okay seapup - you got my attention.

[Cajun Mike]

Well they gave a full refund on the SP-1000. Installed a new SPX-5 tiller pilot & P-70 , searching site for ideas to install P-70 ,standing vertically on pedestal. While asking Raymarine about difference in these 2 tiller pilots , they absolutely do not recommend a below deck installation. But so far works just as Kadet says. About $ 1400 for this system.

[RobertB]

I am looking into this autopilot mod using the tiller drive. I noticed that you installed the actuator to the rudder cross member. Per the measurements on my , this is attached to a 13 inch belcrank on the rudder shafts. Reading the RayMarine instructions for the current EV-100, this tiller is ideally supposed to be mounted 18 inches from the rudder pivot but can be mounted as close as 14 inches. Have you had any issues with this mounted at 13 inches from the pivot?
I am initially considering lengthening the port side belcrank to a 15 or 16 inch pivot and mounting the other end of the actuator on a bracket off of the motor well (close to where the current rudder cable is mounted).

[RobertB]

Does anyone have any experience with Simrad autopilots? The SD-10 drive unit looks like it was made for our boats (hooks to the rudder linkage with a drive cable) and it has a clutch that will disengage when not in use. Couple that with a AP-24 control unit and may be a good system (still doing research).

Main issue with Raymarine is the 1. Total lack of ability to get a customer tech rep on the phone and 2. EV-100 Wheel unit too bulky, EV-100 tiller does not seem intended to leave connected, and EV-200 rotary mechanical drives look plain expensive and oversized for our boats.

[mastreb]

My new boat has the AP-24 with the HLD350 or HLD2000 hydraulic ram (I haven't been able to determine which) drive unit. It's a soft on/off, and has very little residual back force (actually will improve the nervous helm of the MacGregor) when off.

I like it. It has power steer mode, and so it could be effectively used as backup steering if your steering rack or cable gives up underway.

The EV-1 does a better job of countering pitch and yaw from waves however.

[mastreb]

Hey Robert,

So I've been going over the equipment on my boat, and I'd like to clarify the autopilot. It's listed in the NMEA 2000 NETWORK system as an AP24, but what it actually is is the following:

1) AP24 is virtual and a software component of the B&G Zeus Touch. There is no AP24 control head, its integrated into the chart plotter.
2) AC12 Course computer, which actually powers the linear drive
3) RC42 Rate Compass
4) RF300 Rudder feedback unit
5) LS (Lecomble & Schmitt) 40ST16 NEWAVE Linear Drive

So it's not the SIMRAD ram, it's a 3rd party 12VDC hydraulic linear drive.

It's likely the least expensive way to put an autopilot matched to this boat.

[RobertB]

No control head - I like this since there is no room on the pedestal. I wonder how well I could integrate my Garmin 546S into the system - to do more than just provide a course plot?

[mastreb]

No control head - I like this since there is no room on the pedestal. I wonder how well I could integrate my Garmin 546S into the system - to do more than just provide a course plot?

Unfortunately the Garmin chartplotters do not have any kind of autopilot software built in. Otherwise, integration works perfectly well--the chartplotter can send course waypoints and control information to the autopilot without issues, but it's manually initiated. On the B&G Zeus Touch I have to go into settings to "download NMEA 2000 waypoint", but on my Garmin 740s/RayMarine system I can just send a course or waypoint from the garmin and the autopilot picks it up automatically. So I can't exactly say how the Garmin and Simrad will work in terms of user experience, but they can certainly interoperate.

I had the same mounting location problem, but found that it was easy and effective to put the AP control head for the EV-1 (which is exactly the same size as the AP24) on the side of the pedestal. I cut it into the lexan access plate instead of the fiberglass. It just gets removed when I pull the access plate off. I did that because I considered it temporary, but I like it there so now it's permanent.

There are only a few control buttons and it's easily engaged by feel. Works a treat, and certainly better than increasing the clutter atop the pedestal.

In any case, I like the AP24 system and I think the smaller SIMRAD ram would be ideal for direct-driving our boats. The nice part about them is when you put the AP head in standby, the rudder control goes right back to you with no mechanical disengage.

Matt

[BOAT]

Is the Wheel pilot more accurate than the tiller pilot?

[mastreb]

Is the Wheel pilot more accurate than the tiller pilot?

If by accuracy you mean "course tolerance" then the EV-1 on the MacGregor is quite a bit more accurate than the SIMRAD AP-24 on the Oceanis 38, especially considering that the 38 steering is quite precise. But you set the course error tolerance in the autopilot in degrees (how far off it will go before correcting) so that could be the difference.

With the same autopilot control head, I imagine that the course tolerance would be largely the same.

Matt

[kadet]

Is the Wheel pilot more accurate than the tiller pilot?

If you mean by accurate the lack of hunting and direct control of rudders then I would say the tiller, I have no slack in the steering from the steel tubes to the rudder tiller arms. I do however have a bit of slack in the steering wheel helm gears. This is one reason I went tiller over wheel, with the slack in the wheel I felt the wheel pilot would be hunting all the time to stay on course as I have to do when hand steering