Greetings,
I just returned from an overnighter with the family and had some great sailing out of Oxnard, CA, but I think our Mac 26M is having a "problem". Let me list some of the perceived problems and see if anyone here has any comments or recommendations.
The seas were a bit sloppy, but not at all bad. Maybe 3-5ft with a bit of wind chop. Stearing under sail was "fine" or should I say "typical", but I tried to do some fast powering...maybe 6-9knt and all hull seemed to break loose! It was all I could do to keep the boat under control and not make a dramatic "S" path. Rudders and center board were up. This is the second time I have been in rougher seas and it was ugly both times. At times, it is all I can do to stear the boat.....and the Admiral can't....simple as that!
It seems to stear OK under sail....but as a new sailer....I could be totally wrong and don't have the background. I have visually checked out the stearing system and can't find anything "wrong", but I could be looking at a disaster and not know it.....
Any advice or tips would be appreciated. At this point, I could not imagine being out in truely rough water and trying to motor.....so I am a bit concerned......
Thanks
Rich
26M Squirly Sailing?
-
richandlori
- Admiral
- Posts: 1695
- Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:08 pm
- Location: Living Aboard in Morro Bay, CA
- Contact:
-
Mark Prouty
- Admiral
- Posts: 1723
- Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 8:52 am
- Location: Madison, WI Former MacGregor 26X Owner
-
Duane Dunn, Allegro
- Admiral
- Posts: 2459
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:41 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Bellevue, Wa '96 26x, Tohatsu 90 TLDI and Plug In Hybrid Electric drive
- Contact:
It sounds to me like your centerboard wasn't all the way up. It has to be completely inside the trunk. I was surprised the few times I was out on an M, even just a bit a board down (3"-4")changes how the boat behaves under power at speeds higher the 7 knots. It seems more sensitive to this than and X, but when an X board is not fully up the exposed part is further aft than an M. Maybe you have an obstruction that makes the board feel like it is full up but it isn't. The top should come nearly flush to the deck. To confirm if this is the problem you could even just go ahead an pull the board out completely, however don't be surprised by the water spouting out the trunk with the board not in place, this happens.
-
richandlori
- Admiral
- Posts: 1695
- Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:08 pm
- Location: Living Aboard in Morro Bay, CA
- Contact:
The first time I went to Catalina with my old 50 I tried to return on the afternoon and hit pretty heavy wind chop. Boat started pounding so I filled the ballast tank and tried to resume fast motoring-- big mistake. the boat was all over the place with the small 50 unable to generate suffucient torque and keep the boat in a relatively straight line. I later learned a little bit of centerboard down helps maintain direction in these conditions, but not enough to my liking. I lowered rudders and cb and headed back the 6 miles for Catalina, as night was approaching. The best solution I learned in a subsequent trip with similar conditions on return was to leave tank empty, rudders up, c/b couple inches down. Like this I was able to maintain reasonable heading/control and do about 10 knots. A bigger engine is needed for a bigger boat like ours in rough conditions to power easily in a steady direction.
R
R
-
Frank C
Rich,
You mentioned swells (3 to 5') with wind waves. Maybe I'm overly cautious, or else this is just a "personal problem." Regardless, I probably wouldn't dump ballast in those conditions. It's not a question of stability full or empty, it's the fact that you must endure several minutes with "partial ballast." Be careful out there!
P.S. as regards Rolf's CB comment, agree completely on the 26X. But as Duane observed, the 26M is a different beast.
You mentioned swells (3 to 5') with wind waves. Maybe I'm overly cautious, or else this is just a "personal problem." Regardless, I probably wouldn't dump ballast in those conditions. It's not a question of stability full or empty, it's the fact that you must endure several minutes with "partial ballast." Be careful out there!
P.S. as regards Rolf's CB comment, agree completely on the 26X. But as Duane observed, the 26M is a different beast.
-
richandlori
- Admiral
- Posts: 1695
- Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:08 pm
- Location: Living Aboard in Morro Bay, CA
- Contact:
Rich,
You may also remember that when we were powering in after our outing to Anacapa, we were experience some sloppiness on the way back in at the mouth of the channel.
When I came back from Santa Cruz, started with ballast full and opened the fill valve. As I watched the speed increase, the boat definitely became much more stable under power. The "S" wake was there, but I attributed it to the surfing I was doing down the waves.
Bruce
You may also remember that when we were powering in after our outing to Anacapa, we were experience some sloppiness on the way back in at the mouth of the channel.
When I came back from Santa Cruz, started with ballast full and opened the fill valve. As I watched the speed increase, the boat definitely became much more stable under power. The "S" wake was there, but I attributed it to the surfing I was doing down the waves.
Bruce
-
mtc
- Captain
- Posts: 545
- Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:06 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
- Location: Panama City Beach, Florida 05 M 'Bellaroo' 60hp Merc BF
I have the exact problem, under sail all's well - under power AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 
My problem is the steering gear attached to the motor is absolutely horrible: sloppy and loose. There're about 10 to 20 degrees of wheel rotation before the engine moves. The rudders are way too sloppy for my liking and I will remedy that with some mods - not in the play between the rudders and the brackets, but in the steering gear down below.
The engine will not move but the rudders will, then the engine moves. I'm used to precision, and I know, I know, the boat's a compromise, but c'mon. I strongly recommend that anyone with an M should look closely into this steering looseness issue and do what needs to be done to tighten everything up. A little play here, a little play there, all adds up to that crazy S you described.
I just took a cursory look last night at the linkage and will keep you posted on what I do to correct.
Who has the steering mod quick disco from BWY and how well does it work? My play is in the rods below deck. There's much more mass to move than the rudders, so the play isn't apparent without the load of the engine. The BWY may be a first step, however. If their quality is like their stern rails, which I installed Saturday, I'll get one.
Go check your steering. Does the engine turn when you turn the wheel? How much 'play' is in the wheel?
Michael
My problem is the steering gear attached to the motor is absolutely horrible: sloppy and loose. There're about 10 to 20 degrees of wheel rotation before the engine moves. The rudders are way too sloppy for my liking and I will remedy that with some mods - not in the play between the rudders and the brackets, but in the steering gear down below.
The engine will not move but the rudders will, then the engine moves. I'm used to precision, and I know, I know, the boat's a compromise, but c'mon. I strongly recommend that anyone with an M should look closely into this steering looseness issue and do what needs to be done to tighten everything up. A little play here, a little play there, all adds up to that crazy S you described.
I just took a cursory look last night at the linkage and will keep you posted on what I do to correct.
Who has the steering mod quick disco from BWY and how well does it work? My play is in the rods below deck. There's much more mass to move than the rudders, so the play isn't apparent without the load of the engine. The BWY may be a first step, however. If their quality is like their stern rails, which I installed Saturday, I'll get one.
Go check your steering. Does the engine turn when you turn the wheel? How much 'play' is in the wheel?
Michael
-
richandlori
- Admiral
- Posts: 1695
- Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:08 pm
- Location: Living Aboard in Morro Bay, CA
- Contact:
-
mtc
- Captain
- Posts: 545
- Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:06 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
- Location: Panama City Beach, Florida 05 M 'Bellaroo' 60hp Merc BF
Rich,
I'd say the job was in the difficult level - only because it required a great deal of patience and some skill with stainless. That is, knowing how to bend the stuff without kinking it. They were made very well, I must say. As a former marine job shop machinist/welder, they were done with pride. No flaws.
The extreme difficulty was my two stanchions were different and at different angles from the deck. This made the mounting of the rails very difficult as they're probably made from the same shop off of the same jig, which means they both were somewhat 'crooked' and needed some tweaking.
Because that was actually written in the instructions, I felt a little better. 
I ended up using one of my stern trailer straps with a ratcheting mechanism secured from a stanchion to the opposite stern dock cleat, very carefully, ever so gently ratcheting the stanchion inboard to align with the rail, because there was only so much you could do with the shape of the rail.
Don't rip it out of the boat!!!
Once I got the stanchion bent by keeping sustained pressure (stainless is very malleable given the time to bend) the rail fit just right with little bending of the rail. If you had the right stanchion, like the one the rail shop used to make the rail, Im sure it would have just dropped into place.
As for the holes, no problem at all. Three 1/4" holes for the main mount in the upper stern glass, one in the aft stanchion (use a centerpunch and a real sharp bit with heavy pressure at moderate speed), and one 5/32 for the smaller mount, and it's done. The 2" access hole is done easily just forward of the rear mast carrier and below the top of the stern rail with a hole saw. Rotate it counterclockwise to score the gel coat to prevent chipping.
All in all, it was an easy operation - if you're patient. If you're not, don't try it cause you'll get real frustrated; especially if you're used to having things drop into place. 
These needed to be fitted.
I'd do it again, and highly recommend them. The difference they make to the stern is amazing. Having the open stern was never 'right' to me. I like having the rail there. Personal preference.
Do it.
Michael
I'd say the job was in the difficult level - only because it required a great deal of patience and some skill with stainless. That is, knowing how to bend the stuff without kinking it.
They were made very well, I must say. As a former marine job shop machinist/welder, they were done with pride. No flaws.The extreme difficulty was my two stanchions were different and at different angles from the deck. This made the mounting of the rails very difficult as they're probably made from the same shop off of the same jig, which means they both were somewhat 'crooked' and needed some tweaking.
Because that was actually written in the instructions, I felt a little better. I ended up using one of my stern trailer straps with a ratcheting mechanism secured from a stanchion to the opposite stern dock cleat, very carefully, ever so gently ratcheting the stanchion inboard to align with the rail, because there was only so much you could do with the shape of the rail.
Don't rip it out of the boat!!! Once I got the stanchion bent by keeping sustained pressure (stainless is very malleable given the time to bend) the rail fit just right with little bending of the rail. If you had the right stanchion, like the one the rail shop used to make the rail, Im sure it would have just dropped into place.
As for the holes, no problem at all. Three 1/4" holes for the main mount in the upper stern glass, one in the aft stanchion (use a centerpunch and a real sharp bit with heavy pressure at moderate speed), and one 5/32 for the smaller mount, and it's done. The 2" access hole is done easily just forward of the rear mast carrier and below the top of the stern rail with a hole saw. Rotate it counterclockwise to score the gel coat to prevent chipping.
All in all, it was an easy operation - if you're patient.
If you're not, don't try it cause you'll get real frustrated; especially if you're used to having things drop into place. These needed to be fitted.I'd do it again, and highly recommend them. The difference they make to the stern is amazing. Having the open stern was never 'right' to me. I like having the rail there. Personal preference.
Do it.
Michael
Rich,
It would be helpful if we had some more details. Were you going with the wind or against it? What direction was the current to the wind? Were you near or in a river estuary? Do you disconnect the motor steering when sailing and reconnect when powering? Were you ballasted?
I have found when in strong currents to pull up all the fins--all the way up is the best--at least on the M. Going into strong waves just go slow. Sometimes it is like skiing a mogul field; you can steer around the really big ones--sometimes. Going with the waves try to adjust the speed so you stay on top of the waves and out of the troughs. If you have to cross the waves try to go at an angle turning up or down for the really big ones. I have had the best results ballasted and going slow. If the waves are not too strong then it works best to speed up and blast through them.
It would be helpful if we had some more details. Were you going with the wind or against it? What direction was the current to the wind? Were you near or in a river estuary? Do you disconnect the motor steering when sailing and reconnect when powering? Were you ballasted?
I have found when in strong currents to pull up all the fins--all the way up is the best--at least on the M. Going into strong waves just go slow. Sometimes it is like skiing a mogul field; you can steer around the really big ones--sometimes. Going with the waves try to adjust the speed so you stay on top of the waves and out of the troughs. If you have to cross the waves try to go at an angle turning up or down for the really big ones. I have had the best results ballasted and going slow. If the waves are not too strong then it works best to speed up and blast through them.
Squirrely downwind
I've had a similar problem in my 26M while going downwind in 4 foot waves. No matter what I did, if the waves were not exactly on the stern, they would carry the stern to the side, effectively forcing me to do a drunken "S" path.
Waves on the beam or forward = no problem.
Waves coming directly on the stern = no problem.
Waves on either quarter = steering all over the map.
To really understand what is happening you have to view the control of your boat as controlling rotational motion about the boat's pivot point. When motoring ahead in normal configuration (no sails, no rudders, no daggerboard), the pivot point is about one third of the way back from the bow, near the mast step. When the boat is dead stopped, the pivot point moves to the center of mass, roughly amidships. Going astern, the pivot point moves way back almost to the transom. When starting from a dead stop to ahead motion, the pivot point briefly moves all the way to the bow and then settles back to normal - this effect is what allows you to turn so tightly when you first start moving from a dead stop under power.
When you steer the boat under power, you are in effect driving the stern with the engine - the bow moves only because it is on the other side of the pivot point.
Why is understanding the pivot point important? Because the distance between your control force/surface to the pivot point equals the lever arm which your control force is working over to rotate the boat. More lever arm = more power.
What I believe is actually happening, is that when a wave rushes under the boat, as far as your control surface(s) are concerned, you are nearly stopped and lose steerageway (If you have only the outboard down, your control surfaces are practically non-existant and all you have is directional thrust), then start moving forward again which for a very brief time pushes your pivot point all the way forward to the bow and significantly magnifies the wave's ability to move the stern.
I found that I have 2 choices motoring down-wave - either get going faster than the waves, or if that is not possible slow down to below 7 knots and put one or two rudders down. With the added control surface of the rudder(s) I find I can hold her on a decent course - the lift generated by the rudders even with limited flow is almost enough to overcome the wind/wave action trying to push the stern aside.
I've found that messing with the daggerboard never helps much under power. In a motoring situation, what you are doing with the daggerboard is playing with the boat's pivot point, keeping it from moving around "naturally", which gives the steering an unnatural feel to me, and makes the boat feel unsettled.
The time I play with the daggerboard is maneuvering around docks, when it is advantageous to keep the pivot point locked in rather than having it shift aft every time you back down.
As to why this "S" turning is not a problem when sailing downwind: With the daggerboard down and the sails up, you have fixed the pivot point at the mast/daggerboard - it can move a little bit but not much - hence the lever arm over which your rudders can work is pretty constant, and with both rudders down you have quite a bit of control. With the sails up, the thrust/motive force acting on the boat is also acting at the mast, forward of the center of mass, so the rotational force generated by the sails is tending to keep the boat on course.
- AndyS
Waves on the beam or forward = no problem.
Waves coming directly on the stern = no problem.
Waves on either quarter = steering all over the map.
To really understand what is happening you have to view the control of your boat as controlling rotational motion about the boat's pivot point. When motoring ahead in normal configuration (no sails, no rudders, no daggerboard), the pivot point is about one third of the way back from the bow, near the mast step. When the boat is dead stopped, the pivot point moves to the center of mass, roughly amidships. Going astern, the pivot point moves way back almost to the transom. When starting from a dead stop to ahead motion, the pivot point briefly moves all the way to the bow and then settles back to normal - this effect is what allows you to turn so tightly when you first start moving from a dead stop under power.
When you steer the boat under power, you are in effect driving the stern with the engine - the bow moves only because it is on the other side of the pivot point.
Why is understanding the pivot point important? Because the distance between your control force/surface to the pivot point equals the lever arm which your control force is working over to rotate the boat. More lever arm = more power.
What I believe is actually happening, is that when a wave rushes under the boat, as far as your control surface(s) are concerned, you are nearly stopped and lose steerageway (If you have only the outboard down, your control surfaces are practically non-existant and all you have is directional thrust), then start moving forward again which for a very brief time pushes your pivot point all the way forward to the bow and significantly magnifies the wave's ability to move the stern.
I found that I have 2 choices motoring down-wave - either get going faster than the waves, or if that is not possible slow down to below 7 knots and put one or two rudders down. With the added control surface of the rudder(s) I find I can hold her on a decent course - the lift generated by the rudders even with limited flow is almost enough to overcome the wind/wave action trying to push the stern aside.
I've found that messing with the daggerboard never helps much under power. In a motoring situation, what you are doing with the daggerboard is playing with the boat's pivot point, keeping it from moving around "naturally", which gives the steering an unnatural feel to me, and makes the boat feel unsettled.
The time I play with the daggerboard is maneuvering around docks, when it is advantageous to keep the pivot point locked in rather than having it shift aft every time you back down.
As to why this "S" turning is not a problem when sailing downwind: With the daggerboard down and the sails up, you have fixed the pivot point at the mast/daggerboard - it can move a little bit but not much - hence the lever arm over which your rudders can work is pretty constant, and with both rudders down you have quite a bit of control. With the sails up, the thrust/motive force acting on the boat is also acting at the mast, forward of the center of mass, so the rotational force generated by the sails is tending to keep the boat on course.
- AndyS
-
RandyMoon
- Captain
- Posts: 779
- Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:05 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
- Location: Rockwall, TX Lake Ray Hubbard 2005M #0690 L405 Tohatsu TLDI 90 (Rhapsody in Blue)
That is great information Andy.
Like MTC, I am wondering about the M steering. My experience has been many years of speedboats where the steering was a few turns lock to lock. I have no experience in an X, have an M and am just wondering as a reference point, what is normal steering play with a Mac? What should I expect?
The steering seems clunky, but I have chalked that off to the Mac being a hybrid. What is normal? My M seems to have lots of slack and even after turning the wheel many times one direction or the other, does not seem to turn far enough to affect a sharp turn with motor and rudders cranked all the way one way or the other.
Not that I can't adapt like everyone else, I am just curious as to what is normal and to be expected. Are there some mods that can make the Mac more tight?
Like MTC, I am wondering about the M steering. My experience has been many years of speedboats where the steering was a few turns lock to lock. I have no experience in an X, have an M and am just wondering as a reference point, what is normal steering play with a Mac? What should I expect?
The steering seems clunky, but I have chalked that off to the Mac being a hybrid. What is normal? My M seems to have lots of slack and even after turning the wheel many times one direction or the other, does not seem to turn far enough to affect a sharp turn with motor and rudders cranked all the way one way or the other.
Not that I can't adapt like everyone else, I am just curious as to what is normal and to be expected. Are there some mods that can make the Mac more tight?