Anchor windlass - another option or am I being silly

[jimbo]

Looking at the options to both have a heavier anchor versus and the effort to pull it up when fitted with the correct amount of chain.
I have been reviewing the mods for a and the biggest issue is to get the correct drop for the rode under the winch. This involves either raising the winch above deck height or cutting a new storage area under the current (shallow) storage area. Ie into the flotation area. Both are doable but is there a better way?
So looking at this from another direction.
Dropping the anchor or rather lowering is not the issue. The issue is retrieval and breaking the anchor out from its set and manually lifting the combined weight of the heavier achor a chain back into the boat.
So here goes for the maybe silly part.
If a secondary lighter line is fastened to the rear of the anchor. A float is used to float this line above the anchor to avoid fowling. Then a much lighter gauge winch used like this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANCHOR-WINCH-BI ... 232c10589a

is used to retrieve using THIS line. Breaking the achor set is easy (assming the correct type of anchor is used). Still need to manually haul in the rode but a lot of the weight including that of the anchor will be taken using the lighter line winch. This smaller winch only then needs to be sized to lift the anchor and chain weight with little safety factor normally associated with such winches.

The downside is some coordination required between running the winch and manually retrieving the rode and lowering the achor in the first place is not so simple any more.

So silly or not?

[Highlander]

Think this out It does not matter which end u r retrieiving if u lift the rode first the anchor follows , if u lift the anchor first the rode follows either way u are retrieving the same amount of rode & anchor weight , but when u retrieve the rode first u r not lifting the anchor weight until u have retrieved 70% of ur rode , now if u retreive the anchor first u would be lifting twice as much rode weight !!!! at the same time think of the BIG "U" , thats my 1/2cents worth , reversing the preceedure does not make the anchor rode weight dissappear it actually doubles it !! as u r now lifting two anchor rodes verses one ! "U"
Now if that anchor becomes bedded really good & u have to power past the anchor to get it to break free , with ur system u WILL be kissing that anchor & 50% anchor off to the Davie Jones Locker !! , now think of 3-4 ft swells Storm approching anchor either has to be reset or moved out into deeper water & let out more rode I think u r going to be a Beached Whale . anchor systems should be considered a High priority safety factor ur life & boat maybe expired if they should fail in a bad situation ! unlless ur on a small pond !!

J

[Boblee]

I have never seen the need for a winch and we use a pretty heavy Sarca anchor with 6m 3/8" chain, sometimes it's a struggle to break it out but it will be any way and by using the boat to power over it, never had a problem, mind you I'm 67 and pretty buggered so maybe I should check out what you get up to.
Where I did see one used was for getting away a bit earlier when beached by pulling out on the anchor with the rising tide.

[jimbo]

Think this out It does not matter which end u r retrieiving if u lift the rode first the anchor follows , if u lift the anchor first the rode follows either way u are retrieving the same amount of rode & anchor weight , but when u retrieve the rode first u r not lifting the anchor weight until u have retrieved 70% of ur rode , now if u retreive the anchor first u would be lifting twice as much rode weight !!!! at the same time think of the BIG "U" , thats my 1/2cents worth , reversing the preceedure does not make the anchor rode weight dissappear it actually doubles it !! as u r now lifting two anchor rodes verses one ! "U"
Now if that anchor becomes bedded really good & u have to power past the anchor to get it to break free , with ur system u WILL be kissing that anchor & 50% anchor off to the Davie Jones Locker !! , now think of 3-4 ft swells Storm approching anchor either has to be reset or moved out into deeper water & let out more rode I think u r going to be a Beached Whale . anchor systems should be considered a High priority safety factor ur life & boat maybe expired if they should fail in a bad situation ! unlless ur on a small pond !!

J

ah yes good points Highlander. Keep 'em coming.

Once the chain leaves the bottom due to the reverse pull the winch sees all the chain weight of the chain still in the water and this is potentially 2x the water depth of chain but a normal winch retrieval sees one water depth of chain plus anchor. If an all chain rode and in very high depth of water - yes this does matter and is a big issue (killer issue) I agree - so this places a limit on this solution. ie part chain rode with total chain weight of rode (not just deployed chain weight) and anchor weight within winch limits plus safety factor.

This would not be a hands off anchor retrieval proposal - the human winch is still needed for one end of this. So a person still needs to be up on the bow to retrieve the anchor and so I acknowledge the point about conditions making this impossible/difficult - but no more than doing it completely manually. My preference is still for a completely personless retrieval and set as you are building but I do not have your fabrication skills so still thinking.

Process would be like: motor up to the set manually retrieving the nylon rode and running the winch to only take up the slack in the release line as the slack in the rode is brought aboard. Once over the set anchor the winch line is tensioned and the M used to release the anchor in reverse - wave action or people movement from bow to stern (this should be easier than a normal release) - then the winch is used to lift out the anchor backwards. At this point the anchor clears and is quickly brought up to the roller rear end first. The chain and nylon rode will still be in the water in a U with the depth of the U being a nominal half the current water depth. At this point the M can be placed under gentle power as there is no risk of the anchor dragging or hopping along the bottom. But if deep water and a deep U of the rode still in the water, there will be a real risk of any nylon rode still in the water snagging the prop so not advisable. At this point the nylon end of the rode needs to be manually brought aboard with the remainder of the chain part of the rode.

At no stage is the human end lifting both anchor and chain and this is the intent.

But all this comes back to the point I made about downsides. ie coordination of all this and the valid point made - conditions may preclude such co-ordination. The other point I have skipped over is that of the safety factor for the winch - for a winch this small - there is no safety factor. If the winch was used to pull the M to the set, as the winch is pulling on the rear of the anchor I am not sure what would happen - the set destroyed and the anchor hopping over the seabed thus releasing the strain on the winch or the set holding and the winch popping a circuit breaker due to excess load? - neither good as neither predictable.

[Highlander]

Hi Jim
Sorry I can't justify spending that kinda $$$$ on something that still needs my assistance Phisically ! lifting heavy rode whether it be chain or wet heavy line , then struggling to turn a heavy anchor around to set on the anchor roller on a calm sea would be bad enough , but on a 3-4ft swell or larger forget it getting to old for that Sh_t !
Now I checked out the bigger drum style electric anchor winches & they can be ordered with a wide narrow drum that will fit right into our mac anchor hatches & stronge enough for our boats but with price ranges from 1700.$ to 2500.$ their a little more than I'm prepaired to pay .
Now my windlass with gypsy on one side & capstan on the other cost's 1200.00$ before taxes , but I was able to pick-up a brand new display model on the internet for 399.$ so it was a no brainer even came with the reversing relay solenoid
it has built in switches on top of the windlass so no need to spend 200.$ on foot deck switches for the bow which u need if u sail alone , so it can be opperated from the bow or from the escape hatch by using these switches or from the cockpit control switch it's good for keel boats up too 36ft so I have a a huge built in safety factor also the capstan can be used for hauling a dinghy or an eng. on board or other heavy things such as fuel tanks or gear or even M/O board situations , or raising the mast or boat retreival onto the boat trl & I made sure the mounting brkt's r very strong for that reason thats why she is attached to the deck & hull she is a mutli purpose winch so I will get a very big bang for my $$$ & with my designed timed switching brkt she can be pointed to either of my two anchor rollers
Now if u could find a good used heavy duty drum style electric winch with a wide narrow drum that would fit into the mac anchor locker that would be great or look for a new display mod going for a song thats only been used for boat & Dealer trade shows & the like , they go for a song when the newer models come out , thats how I got mine so cheap

J

[restless]

One of the problems is being able to get a good pull on the anchor. I really struggled to start with, then implemented our nodding donkey mod



I can stand straight (over the forward hatch) and pull the hook up with little risk of falling overboard. As an added bonus, by hanging a large carabiner midway down the deck off the guard rail I can even haul up the hook from the cockpit when single handed... a real bonus sometimes! It self stowes and is ready for rapid deploy. We're very happy with this! I suspect a lot simpler than going electric! Hope this helps.

http://www.ironengineer.com/mac/home/

[Russ]

I've seen these windlasses installed successfully. However, they all seem extremely expensive, complicated and require creative deck modifications.

Anchor retrieval seems to be a big issue with Mac owners or maybe just on this forum. I have a big 22lb claw. The thing sets tight when it wants to. I'm not a body builder and I've never had trouble raising it. Our boats are relatively small with relatively small anchors and chain. I suppose some people struggle with it, but for thousands of dollars for a windlass, I would buy a gym membership and gloves instead.

Most stuck anchors are easily retrieved by reducing all available scope and driving the boat over the anchor in the opposite direction it is set in. Without adequate scope, the thing will pull out of the bottom with a little force from the motor.
I suppose if you are single handling it's hard to do that. In that case, I would then invest in a bow roller (like the donkey above) and run the rode to the cockpit as described above. Drive the boat over while pulling the slack. Then cleat it off and drive over the anchor with a little power.

An anchor caught on a submerged object is another story. No windlass is going to help you there either. A trip line would.

I suppose for some, the windlass is a justified solution. I just can't see it worth the effort for me.

--Russ

[Boblee]

If on the boat by myself and usually do the anchor myself anyway, pull as much chain as possible and just clip it over a cleat or both, go back to the cockit and carefully nudge forward until the anchor breaks free, unless on a rocky ground there is little chance of it catching on something unless maybe are trees etc as the anchor won't set with no scope.
If you have got your chain up so you know there is only the anchor on the bottom from your sonar depth reading there is little chance it will not release but if there is chan wrapped around something you basically need to work out where you might have drifted during the set but a winch is really not going to help you break that free anymore than cleating and nudging under power.
Can't remember what the old bow roller was like but think it was fairly flimsy, what we have now really isn't a problem to lift the anchor and 6m of 3/8" chain over it by standing back behind the anchor closet.

[Divecoz]

I have in the past considered a windless install. For me hoisting the anchor is no real problem , just a PITA and especially when sailing alone in adverse weather. If you do all the work yourself ,it can be done for about $1000 USD. It is however a lot of work ,as Highlander has shown.. Mine was to have been a simpler design and it was still a lot of work... I sat and discussed it with my brother and as I am never anchored in water deeper than about 20 to 25 feet ( I still need to go forward and un-pin my anchors and re-pin them on retrieval. So I have decided to invest that money in a Bigger Better .... GPS / Chartplotter/ Sonar.. One I can transfer from my sailboat to my power boat easily.. Yes my Garmin's with their 5" screens are nice and do the job , but I am now spoiled after using my brothers 10" screen..
I agree and have seen just what others here describe , when it come to dislodging a "stuck" anchor. Retrieve scope and let the boat itself do the work. If its stuck on an object , down here a wreck.. your screwed unless you can dive down for it. That's how I ended up with yet anther Danforth Anchor.
Some poor sole had hooked a wreck at 120 feet and had no way to retrieve it.. We were diving that wreck , spearfishing and unhooked the anchor and brought her up.. We NEVER anchor when diving, as we always leave at least one person aboard, who watches bubbles and keeps the boat in the general vicinity.. a lot less swimming at the end of a dive and often when hauling dead fish in shark invested waters.. But its still a Salty / Cool Mod to have
on-board.. Its a Big Boat Item and has Bling factor written all over it.. Even my brothers 30 foot Shamrock has one and it is VERY convenient..

[Catigale]

A couple of Admirals put a windlass on their , I believe they were PNW sailors - Ill try find link with details

[Highlander]

A couple of Admirals put a windlass on their , I believe they were PNW sailors - Ill try find link with details

I think I seen then were they not "Assies" !!

J

[bartmac]

Bought but not yet installed a drum winch...fits in the anchor well of a Mac26X(but not the anchor as well so need something upfront to store the anchor).......so it will retrieve both rope and chain.Of course needs an ample supply of 12V,which we've got,and a control which works both from the cockpit and from the front deck...probably a corded pendulum which reaches both.....BUT haven't got around to it.
Not lazy or hard to pull the anchor but does allow for at least let the anchor out from the cockpit

[Ixneigh]

I've been very happy with my simple install of a manual vertical chain grabber. Or wildcat for those older seafarers, mounted in the anchor well but without cutting deeper. It makes everyday retrieval easier on back hands and arms. I have to shuffle the pile of chain a few times during retrieval but jts a non issue. I have 70 feet of high test chain and a 30 foot nylon rope snubber. If the weather is bad I use the engine to help break out the hook then reel it in. I can still pull the chain by hand if needed, and ALOT faster if fueled by panic. For me the wind lass was not so much to be stronger then my arms, but to make pulling the anchor while swimming fishing or exploring, easier. I use one anchor for all of that, the large 22 delta. There has been a learning curve and I'm still learning, to the correct anchoring of this boat the M model. Latest lesson: if you wind up in shallow water close to shore in strong onshore winds, don't try to pull the anchor all the way up. Shorten the scope, then gently break the hook out with the engine and drag it slowly into deeper water, then stow everything properly now that you don't have to worry about being blown ashore. it seems obvious. Now. Stuff like that will lessen the need for anchor pulling devices and turn them into items of convenience.
Ix