still stumped adjusting shrouds

[Whipsyjac]

Dave,

If your rig is so tight it takes 2 to pin the forestay, you probably don't want to go any tighter without a loos gauge. Is your backstay interfering? When adjusting your rig tensions you should have the backstay disconnected so it doesn't interfere. There have been many good threads on here about rig tension as well as an article on tuning fractional rigs under the features at the top of the home page.

I couldn't do much with my rig until I undid my backstay. With backstay off I undid the furler drum and tightened the turnbuckle inside all the way. This took the excessive rake(weather helm) out of my mast. I have a few pics of Whipsyjac at anchor and the mast still has a bit of rake to the rear. I also have a bit of weather helm left. In order to re-attach my backstay I had to pin in a small turnbuckle because the original verniers didn't meet anymore. I keep a bag handy with all the left over hardware and stainless bolts from each little task. The PO had some 4"stainless turnbuckles and pins so I popped one on the backstay.

I'm afraid to tighten my rig anymore without a gauge and a Johnson lever since it also takes 2 adults to pin my forestay. However my lee shrouds have a bit more slack than I think is right in wind over 10kts. I'm not going to guess so I'll probably borrow or buy a gauge.

Willy

[bscott]

Your lee shroud should have a fair amount of slack under heavy conditions. Installing a 4:1 vang on the back stay will make pinning the forestay much easier to pin as well as stabilizing the rig for better close reaching.

Bob

[RobertB]

Guess this is a good a time to ask this question again - never yet been able to get a answer (and I have searched the forum first).

What tension do people find best for the upper and the lower shrouds?

[bscott]

...release the forestay ...

Again, don't have a practical solution for that yet. Reattaching the forestay is by far the hardest thing to do on my Mac. It falls about an inch short, and needs 2 strong people to stretch it that last inch to re-pin it.

Invest in an M mast raising gin pole/winch from BWY--I made my own with X parts and a small boat winch---I pin my forestay myself. There is a video somewhere in the mod section.

Bob

[DaveC426913]

...release the forestay ...

Again, don't have a practical solution for that yet. Reattaching the forestay is by far the hardest thing to do on my Mac. It falls about an inch short, and needs 2 strong people to stretch it that last inch to re-pin it.

Invest in an M mast raising gin pole/winch from BWY--I made my own with X parts and a small boat winch---I pin my forestay myself. There is a video somewhere in the mod section.

Bob

I've got a mast-raising system with my X. OK, so there's no winch. It does have a 4:1 block & tackle (otherwise known as the vang or main sheet tackles repurposed). But I can't get that last inch.

[Tomfoolery]

I've got a mast-raising system with my X. OK, so there's no winch. It does have a 4:1 block & tackle (otherwise known as the vang or main sheet tackles repurposed). But I can't get that last inch.

Did you pop the backstay loose? Do you overcrank the MRS using a cabin roof winch to make pinning the forestay easier?

I can raise and pin it myself, and though I don't know the tension in the shrouds, they (lee shrouds) don't go slack in heavy sailing, so it's not like they're sloppy loose.

[bscott]

Guess this is a good a time to ask this question again - never yet been able to get a answer (and I have searched the forum first).

What tension do people find best for the upper and the lower shrouds?

I set my uppers at 240 Loos while standing on the cabin reaching up the shroud as far up as I can read the gage. Inners at 200. Back stay OFF. The Loos will give you different readings depending on where you place the gage on the shroud.

I also shortened my spreaders 2.5" each side for better reaching and easier mast stepping.

Bob

[capncarp]

You have to use the winches mounted on the aft cabin roof when using the mast raising system.
capncarp

[DaveC426913]

Guess this is a good a time to ask this question again - never yet been able to get a answer (and I have searched the forum first).

What tension do people find best for the upper and the lower shrouds?

There's no real answer. The standard answer is 10% of breaking force. The Loos gauge I have includes instructions about what that value is for my particular rigging size. And it doesn't have to be in pounds; it's just a number on the gauge (though that number can be converted to pounds).

[DaveC426913]

I've got a mast-raising system with my X. OK, so there's no winch. It does have a 4:1 block & tackle (otherwise known as the vang or main sheet tackles repurposed). But I can't get that last inch.

Did you pop the backstay loose? Do you overcrank the MRS using a cabin roof winch to make pinning the forestay easier?

Yes. No.

To use the winch will require three people to raise the mast. One on the mast, one on the bow, and one on the winch.

[Tomfoolery]

I've got a mast-raising system with my X. OK, so there's no winch. It does have a 4:1 block & tackle (otherwise known as the vang or main sheet tackles repurposed). But I can't get that last inch.

Did you pop the backstay loose? Do you overcrank the MRS using a cabin roof winch to make pinning the forestay easier?

To use the winch will require three people to raise the mast. One on the mast, one on the bow, and one on the winch.

I do it myself, and did even before I modified the MRS for 5-parts of line and ball bearing blocks. Using the cabin roof winch, I'd just crank it all the way up, lock it with the jamb cleat (and also cleat the bitter end, just in case), go forward, pin the forestay, and go back and slack it off. Attach and snug the backstay, and continue with the rest of the setup. With 5-parts and much less running friction, I don't even bother with the winch now.

If you use baby stays, it only takes one person to do the whole job using the MRS. If I was younger, I might not have even bothered with the MRS. I used to do it myself a few boats back since I didn't have one, though the risk of losing the mast off the side was very real.

[mika]

It is reassuring and comforting to see that so many others find the process of shroud adjustment to be such a challenging and arduous ordeal. We recently spent over two hours, with a $90 loos gauge, trying to achieve - before we became exhausted and gave up - the #300 (upper) and #270 (lower) recommended on this website. We have found that the only technique that works for us is the one described above by "BOAT", where we use our mast raising system wench to free up the forestay, allowing slack on the shrouds so we can easily change the pins in the verniers.

A real problem and concern I have is that after we have properly snugged up the shrouds, it is extremely difficult to crank the wench those last 3 - 5 inches to the point where we can re-attach the forestay. It takes all of my strength and the wench creaks like it is about to fail! Worsening this task is the fact that in the process my rotating mast always turns itself to the extreme right or left, which steals one to three inches away from the length of the forestay! Why? Do any of you other "M" owners have the same problem? Any solutions or suggestions?

It seems everybody claims that the verniers are better than turnbuckles. Have any of you retrofitted your Macs with turnbuckles? Know anyone who has? If so, what has your experience been? We had turnbuckles on our Catalina, and those made fine-tuning shroud adjustments - even when they were under tension - a real breeze.

BTW, I am really disappointed with the Loos gauge. It often gives different readings when you take several readings at the same shroud length. Not a precision tool. ( . . . As long as this website has been around (thank God for that!), isn't is surprising that it still marks the proper spelling of "forestay" as a misspelling?

Thanks for your replies and comments.

[DaveC426913]

I do it myself, and did even before I modified the MRS for 5-parts of line and ball bearing blocks. Using the cabin roof winch, I'd just crank it all the way up, lock it with the jamb cleat (and also cleat the bitter end, just in case), go forward, pin the forestay, and go back and slack it off. Attach and snug the backstay, and continue with the rest of the setup. With 5-parts and much less running friction, I don't even bother with the winch now.

If you use baby stays, it only takes one person to do the whole job using the MRS. If I was younger, I might not have even bothered with the MRS. I used to do it myself a few boats back since I didn't have one, though the risk of losing the mast off the side was very real.

Yeah, maybe you're right. I'm getting better at it. This year, I declared a victory that I was able to raise the mast single-handed. But it was a lot of work, and I wouldn't want to do it unless I had to. But I'll try the winch and see how that goes.

[BOAT]

It's 290 on the outers and 270 on the inners for 'boat' - but not the same for all - newer boats seem to have less pounds to achieve 10%, the older stays may need a littler more (I have heard some are up to 350 to 390!! )

Inner stays always less than the outer or you may bow the mast a bit. Not a crisis, but bad form.

Yes, the mast must be in the straight position (NOT rotated) if you are going to do it alone - I ALWAYS do the mast step alone - and if I can't get the last 1/2 inch I just go to the MRS and crank it another 2 or 3 clicks and try again - usually I get pinned on the second time - - a lot of that has to do with just being patient enough for the whole system to stretch out a little - if you try to pin like 10 seconds after you step the mast it's still stretching (the side stays and stuff) so you may find it a bit tight - - let it "warm up" a little and stretch, then crank a little more - then pin it.

Turn the mast straight and do not let it rotate when you are making the last few cranks - it's important because if the mast it rotated it will make it harder to pin the furler.

There should be NO SLACK AT ALL in any weather - heavy or otherwise on ANY stays on ANY tack.

[mika]

Thanks for the "stretching" comments, BOAT. (1) Keeping the mast from rotating while cranking at the same time is an impossible task; as soon as you let go of it, it forcefully swings back to the side. Maybe with someone else on deck to hold it, but that takes more strength than the admiral (MRS) has. (2) FYI -In an earlier and lengthy discussion in this forum, there had been what appeared to be a consensus on 300/270. Close enough to #290. Even with that Loos gauge, it is difficult, if not impossible, to get a precise tension. As I said, the gauge keeps changing its mind and IMHO finding the exact correct combination of holes in the verniers is also very tricky, if not nearly impossible. (3) Apparently you, BOAT, find the last few cranks to be very difficult as well. Glad it's not just a fluke with me and my boat. But is doesn't seem right that it should be that way. (4) I hope someone comments on the questions I raised above about turnbuckles. (5) And captcarp, and others, the mast raising system furnished with our "M" only uses the one winch on the mast raising pole - no others. (7) And, whpsyjac, ours get that tight and hard to crank after the loos says its at the correct tension. (8) BTW you "X' captains, our "M"s have no backstay. So that's not an issue for us M guys.

Thanks to all for your thoughts and ideas. Hope to receive even more input.