Windmills and water makers

[Chopper Pilot]

I am thinking of making my 26M the ultimate Bahama boat. Thus, my mind for modification will be directed towards designing and installing a water maker and a large windmill (7 to 10 ft in diameter).

For the windmill, I want to store the blades below until I anchor. Then bring each blade up and install it. It should generate large amounts of energy. Not sure if it will go on the front of the boat, out of the way, or on the back of the boat, over the water. The nose of the boat will always be pointing into the wind and the windmill will have a little bit of left and right pivot to it.

For the water maker, I have been thinking of a dingy outboard motor mod for the CAT Pump to belt to. That way I will have a mobile water making capability. They are not that difficult to make, it is just lugging the parts around when you will want to make water. I imagine I will need two separate engine covers, one with the CAT Pump mod mounted to it when I want it hooked to the outboard. I would run my reverse osmosis membranes inside above the aft births.

[seahouse]

Sounds interesting.

While there is a mountain of considerations, because of the drag the windmill will create, for stability you'd be better off locating it at the stern, like the feathers of a shuttlecock; even though you will generate less power output because the blades will be exposed to an interrupted airflow.

You'll also want to keep the blade tips out of reach to prevent amputations . The larger the diameter of the windmill, the more such complications arise, so you might find yourself downsizing from initial ideas for a number of practical reasons. And it will also be noisy when trying to sleep, assuming there's wind at night where you plan to be.

I've been following this

http://www.scoraigwind.com/

website for nearly 2 decades now, it's kept up to date as the knowledge base evolves, I think you'll find it a great windmill resource, particularly if you are considering DIYing it.

-B.

[Chopper Pilot]

I have been following this website for yearshttp://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.html . That is where I got the ideas from. I ordered two of the books the recommended a few days ago. I received one already and still waiting on the other. My intent, if I mount it on the stern, is to place it a little past the stern. It will be heavy, so bracing will be the focus. My hope is to extract a lot of energy out of windy days and squalls at anchor. This should push my power for my needs on fridges, A/C and such. I would like to use a hybrid system so I could run a generator far-less or not-at-all. Got to make the wife comfy.

[kevinnem]

I can't imagine something that size on the boat. Not only is it a pain in the <you know>, . I would quite honestly consider just how dangerous it could be - and take this form a guy that does a ton of stupid stuff (ever microwave a 1/2 cut grape?)

the blades will spin fast, and that is scare, what if in the middle of the night you lose anchor, and have to start up the engine, move, ad reset, with this thing spining around.. or a strom comes up .. I can think of 1000 reasons this is not a great idea.

If it where me - my first step would be solar. My second would be to buy/build something that sits in the water and generates some power as teh current goes past, then I would worry about a generator, and I think wind turbine are best on large boats, or in stationary situations.

rather then startign with wind power for an unknown goal. can we start with what your tring to accomplish?

[seahouse]

Yeah CP - it's another good site too.

Another problem is the variability of wind, so at times you will be relying on suitably-sized storage batteries and/or your generator, depending on when (seasonally) and where you are, especially for high power consumption loads like a fridge.

I have the land-based version of this one...

http://primuswindpower.com/wind-power-p ... turbine-2/

...that I have yet to install permanently at my house. This is the one I have seen most often on boats (I don't recall seeing one on a boat as small as ours, though) as it has a distinctive Air-X look. I would think that for added output (although a single large one certainly is better in terms of output) it might be more practical to run two of these side by side, rathre than going with a single large one.

With a large diameter mill there is also the flywheel effect to consider on a bobbing smaller boat (like when it's windy, and spinning fast), putting added stress on the bearings, blades and supports.

You won't want to run in really high winds, when there is a need for braking, furling, or blade-stall to prevent overspeeding that you will need to provide for, and for when your power storage is fully charged.

Of course, your books and reading will fill in all the details.

[Russ]

rather then startign with wind power for an unknown goal. can we start with what your tring to accomplish?

That's what I was thinking. My fear is that you are trying to squeeze too much from a light 26' trailer sailer.

Where are you going to store the water you make, the electricity you generate?
Wind is a great source of power, but to a limit. Not sure you will make enough for A/C. Where on a Mac do you keep a generator, ac, windmill, water maker, water, batteries, inverter.....

I love the Mac, but it has limits. If you want to cruise the Bahamas, a larger boat might suit you better. Built in fridge, water tanks, hot shower. Lots of cheap catamarans there better suited for cruising the islands.

--Russ

[Chopper Pilot]

I have an experimental test pilot mindset. That means I look for ways to advance a platform. I have a "how can I make this better to its furthest extent", then find ways to make it happen. If I wanted to purchase something that already has this, I had the ability to buy it. Settling with what has already been done is not my way.

As for where I am putting the water tank, I am going to put it under the seat with the mirror. I plan on moving my sink and stove over it. I am thinking about giving the sink a verticle adjustment so people can still slide their feet under it when sleeping. I do not need a large tank because I can make water when it gets low on demand. Let it run for 15 to 30 minutes at a time. To me, it is crazy to waste storage space to store large amount of heavy water.

As for the windmill, I am thinking about using an addition to electronically control the breaking speed of the windmill so it won't overspend or over charge. As easy as it will be to put on the blades, so it will be easy to take them off when I don't need them on.

[kurz]

wha you want get so MUCH eletricity?
What your use the power for?

[RobertB]

Practicality aside, the size of the generator seems way too big. Two foot blade systems are used on much large boats. And they have very substantial structures to mount to. I also question how to safely assemble and disassemble this system as pat of regular use. Some real safety concerns. How would you brake the system to disassemble it it you needed to start maneuvering in a windy situation? On a boat like ours, I do not see anything practical much over 12 inch blades and permanently mounted. I understand the test pilot mentality, but the aircraft engineer in me suggests looking at all considerations. Also, keep in mind, when these things get spinning, you really need to keep them far enough away so they can not be reached with an arm, fishing pole, boat hook, whatever.

[Ixneigh]

The Mac M is the wrong boat in my pinion for what you say you want. I do get the "getting the most out of the platform" but it's a fine line between that and practicality. The Mac is great for one or two who can live without some comforts. If you try to cram all the comforts of home into it, I think not only will you compromise the platform but you could even render it unsafe.

A few points come to mind
Always have plenty of water. Yes it's heavy. Your water maker, like any piece of equipment on a boat, can take a crp at any time. So now you have heavy tanks and complicated equipment. Sure if you want to spend a month Cay Sal, great.
Otherwise there are plenty of places to get water in the islands.

Also I think it's a bahhhhd idea to have anything that has to be disassembled in order to get the boat under way.
I've had to up anchor at night in the blinding rain and re anchor somewhere else. No time to worry about large items like a windmill.

The M and X platform, like aircraft, were made for a specific use. Within that use there is certainly room for mods.
But you can't alter the weight carrying and center of gravity facts.

Ix

[kurz]

why not change a Katadyn Survivor .06 watermaker into an electric one?
So you get 24l/24h, and normla solar power can do the job.

[Russ]

The Mac M is the wrong boat in my pinion for what you say you want. I do get the "getting the most out of the platform" but it's a fine line between that and practicality. The Mac is great for one or two who can live without some comforts. If you try to cram all the comforts of home into it, I think not only will you compromise the platform but you could even render it unsafe.

A few points come to mind
Always have plenty of water. Yes it's heavy. Your water maker, like any piece of equipment on a boat, can take a crp at any time. So now you have heavy tanks and complicated equipment. Sure if you want to spend a month Cay Sal, great.
Otherwise there are plenty of places to get water in the islands.

Also I think it's a bahhhhd idea to have anything that has to be disassembled in order to get the boat under way.
I've had to up anchor at night in the blinding rain and re anchor somewhere else. No time to worry about large items like a windmill.

The M and X platform, like aircraft, were made for a specific use. Within that use there is certainly room for mods.
But you can't alter the weight carrying and center of gravity facts.

Ix

I agree with much of this. If you want to sail the Bahamas, sell the Mac and take the cash and buy a larger cruiser.

I also get the max out of our Mac....because I have no choice. Where we sail, there are no marinas or services, so we have to roll it in ourselves and rig it. So I have solar panel, lots of fuel and water etc. But it's maxed out and I would never take this rig into blue water. Too much junk to make it safe.

As IX stated, a storm will find you and you won't have time to deal with a big windmill (or even a small one). Our boats are lightweight and not suited for blue water cruising period. Many have taken them to the Bahamas under ideal conditions. Don't kid yourself into thinking you can push our boats into this kind of duty.

Watermakers are slow. You still need to store water. As he stated, much easier to find local fresh water and store it, spend effort on conservation so you don't need much.

Read blogs etc. of others who have sailed the region you want to go and learn from their experiences. I hope your spouse is up for adventure, because this is a small boat for 2 people to cruise on. It's doable, but requires few creature comforts.

No one has outfitted their boat with more attention to detail than Sumner. He took it for long trips in Florida. I would check out his blog to see what he did http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... index.html
--Russ

[seahouse]

I have an experimental test pilot mindset. That means I look for ways to advance a platform. I have a "how can I make this better to its furthest extent", then find ways to make it happen. If I wanted to purchase something that already has this, I had the ability to buy it. Settling with what has already been done is not my way.

As for where I am putting the water tank, I am going to put it under the seat with the mirror. I plan on moving my sink and stove over it. I am thinking about giving the sink a verticle adjustment so people can still slide their feet under it when sleeping. I do not need a large tank because I can make water when it gets low on demand. Let it run for 15 to 30 minutes at a time. To me, it is crazy to waste storage space to store large amount of heavy water.

As for the windmill, I am thinking about using an addition to electronically control the breaking speed of the windmill so it won't overspend or over charge. As easy as it will be to put on the blades, so it will be easy to take them off when I don't need them on.

The Air-X has all that built in to the internal circuit already. When it detects that the battery bank is fully charged it brakes itself and can actually stop the blades. It can also brake itself to prevent overspeed, and as I recall the blade design is the stall type; the blades will begin to stall and slow the rotation before destructive speeds are reached.

Purposely braking the windmill is easy, you simply rig a (very heavy duty) switch in the line that connects (shorts) the two output wires. If it doesn't stop the blades completely, it will dramatically slow them and extend the life of the mill. As a best practice this should be rigged in anyway for safety if you ever need an emergency shutdown.

The blades on the Air-X are easy to remove too - IIRC there are 3 bolts per blade, the blades are indexed, and they have been weighed and balanced so that they don't necessarily have to go back into the same pocket they came out of. There is one central (stainless steel) nut that will remove the rotor assembly as a unit if you wanted to do that and then remove the individual blades from the hub in the security of the cockpit.

As you buy it, the internal control system will shut down, and essentially waste, the energy once the bank is fully charged. That's why you see smaller windmills not turning when the wind is blowing.

I am presently working on setting mine up so once the bank is fully charged the excess power gets dumped into a resistive heater to heat my house, a common customization of this arrangement, and the Air-X can be easily over-ridden to allow this.

The logic controller circuit, BTW, is more sophisticated and efficient than something a DIYer is likely to come up with on his own.

I see nothing wrong with your approach to determine the maximum output that you can practically achieve, and then work backwards from there to see what you can run from it. It's one logical route to take in my eyes.

[Chopper Pilot]

The purpos of the arduino would be to monitor several perimeters simultaneously. It would be wire in a way that I have complete over ride capability. It can monitor RPM/voltage output and compare it to do simple functions based off of what I want it to do. I could even automate it to be voice activated. I can ask it parameters or I can just tell it to turn off (grounding out/breaking) and it comply. Additions are dirt cheap and can be easily programmed. A windmill of the size I am saying can function as a fast charging system because they will produce more power than needed. Meaning that I never have to stop using electricity in order to direct my power to the sole function of charging. Additions are about $25. Then just buy the sensors you would like. They are so cheap that you can have triple redundancy for next to nothing. Then on top of that, you still have the mechanical switch to flip yourself should all the radii is malfunction or quit.

As for the water maker, I do not want to have to do anything anywhere when I am enjoying where I am at. I don't want to be forced to go retrieve water from land if I don't want to. I can shower, or put water into a wine glass and poor it over the side of the boat so Neptune has something to drink, if and when I want to. I do not want my anchor to land to always be my water supply. I am not intending this to be a blue water boat. I intend for this boat to be what ever I want it to be for all possible scenarios. When you design your own sea water reverse osmosis machine and build it, you can place parts in locations that fit the boat. More importantly, you know every part of it so you do not fear when something goes wrong. They are very simple to build and less than half of what it would cost for a new commercial one. This is sort of the logic when arguing storing hot water or making hot water on demand.

[Russ]

As for the water maker, I do not want to have to do anything anywhere when I am enjoying where I am at. I don't want to be forced to go retrieve water from land if I don't want to. I can shower, or put water into a wine glass and poor it over the side of the boat so Neptune has something to drink, if and when I want to. I do not want my anchor to land to always be my water supply. I am not intending this to be a blue water boat. I intend for this boat to be what ever I want it to be for all possible scenarios. When you design your own sea water reverse osmosis machine and build it, you can place parts in locations that fit the boat. More importantly, you know every part of it so you do not fear when something goes wrong. They are very simple to build and less than half of what it would cost for a new commercial one. This is sort of the logic when arguing storing hot water or making hot water on demand.

Rich, a member on this forum and former Mac owner started a RO water maker company because he needed a solution for his own boat.
http://www.cruiserowaterandpower.com/

Check it out. I was in Honduras in June and met a couple using his system on their liveaboard boat. Works great. I drank some of the water and it was perfect. They had great things to say about his system.

I still think the Mac is too small for what you are doing, but this something I would try to do and will be following your journey. Please keep us posted.