Thunderstorms

[BOAT]

Just move to Southern California. The weather never gets that bad and your never more than 30 miles from a harbor.

[Russ]

The most prudent thing is to be aware of weather and avoid it. With modern weather apps, this is easy to do.

True but even with all the modern tech they still get it wrong. The near gale I was caught in was not predicted when we set out for a weekend of sailing and fishing at an island about 20 miles off-shore. And when the weather was updated it arrived 12 hours earlier than predicted. We had slept over night with the intention of heading home at first light to avoid the gale coming the next evening. But when we woke it was already building and by the time we were ready to leave it was howling. 4+ hours motoring at 4 knots in 6-9 foot waves on the beam. Not fun but never felt unsafe just very uncomfortable.

How true. With all the technology, they still get forecasts wrong.

I depend heavily on radar maps. Mountain boating means there is a massive range blocking my west view of approaching storms. My weather app on my phone can show me junk over the top of the mountain I can't normally see until it's on top of us.
Forecasts tend to miss lots of weather for us as there is a lot of difference even 30 miles away.

Nevertheless, a working knowledge of fronts and pressure systems can teach you how and when to keep an open watch.

--Russ

[mastreb]

Just move to Southern California. The weather never gets that bad and your never more than 30 miles from a harbor.

I've been doing a lot of research into storm tactics because I'm about to start doing some passages on my 38'. I've been reading coast guard reports on various storm tactics, reading anecdotes of survival in storms, and reading the seminal book "Storm Tactics".

Now, obviously on our MacGregor's, the mantra is "Run for Safe Harbor". It's by far the wisest thing you can do in our coastal boats.

But then there's this:

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014/12/ ... on-harbor/

We'd made plans to be in Avalon that week because the kids were out of school, but then we all got sick from a bug passing through and by the time we were well, the weather reports looked bad enough that I decided to wait another day. That night, this storm struck and created a disaster in Avalon that killed two people--in the harbor. Honestly it never would have occurred to me that this sort of thing was even a possibility, but in the future the Avalon Harbor Master will likely require boats to leave Avalon in advance of strong weather and shelter in the lee of the island.

I've also been caught in Newport harbor in a gale at the Police guest docks, which are along the channel at the mouth of the harbor. The storm threatened throughout the evening, but my brother-in-law and I went out to a bar anyway, and I wound up being the "designated walker" as he needed assistance to return to the boat. Anyway, we were cleated off at four points with spring-lines because we knew it would be choppy, but we weren't prepared for intensity of the storm. Four foot rollers were making their way all the way past the breaks and into the harbor, so we were being tossed around like crazy, and I wound up having to go out three times to re-tie the properly made cleat knots that had come undone on the pier--that itself was no easy task just getting off the boat and onto the dock safely. I thought sure the boat would have some damage the next morning as it hit the dock when the cleats came undone, but there was nary a mark. I had tied down the helm to port to keep the motor and rudders from flopping and was glad I did.

The bottom line is sometimes there's no such thing as safe harbor. In the Avalon disaster, those boats would have been safer out to sea, exhausting as that night would have been. There were no breaking waves and so no real danger of capsize (for sailboats) in that storm except in the harbor. In the case of my long night in Newport, I too probably would have been safer offshore, as getting off and on the boat in those conditions to re-tie cleat knots was extremely dangerous and wouldn't have been necessary at all offshore. Had the storm been any stronger at all, We would have wound up on the hard one way or another.

Oceanside, Dana Point, Newport, Long Beach, and Avalon are all "Fair weather" artificial harbors that can be overwhelmed in heavy weather. Of the available harbors, only San Diego Bay is large enough to mitigate serious storm in Southern California.

For MacGregor owners, storm tactics are really problematic. It would be a damned difficult decision to decide that you're safer offshore than in harbor. The right decision in Avalon and for me in Newport would have been to put the boat into harbor, and then leave the boat rather than staying aboard, which will be my tactic next time. Yes, I would have had considerable damage because I wouldn't have been their to re-tie the cleat knot, but I was only one slip away from being suddenly in the water in a storm between a boat and a pier that were trying to beat each other to death.

I'm a fan of the main-only hove-to for these boats for gale conditions, but in waves larger than 8 feet, you have the problem that you can be quartered and capsized if you hit the wave wrong, and that the wind drops off in the lee of large waves just when you need it to point you into the wave. That second problem only gets worse as the wave size increases and is exacerbated by the high windage that causes "the mac dance". Its likely that in waves of 12 feet or more, a hove-to may suddenly stop working as the wind-shadow of the waves prevents the sails from keeping you bow-to.

For standing up to strong breaking waves, the Coast Guard recommends series drogues deployed from the stern. They recommend the stern because its more buoyant than the bow and because the beam of the stern reduces yawing into the wave as happens with the bow. This is the "Mac Dance" happening at sea-anchor. In capsizing breaking waves that always capsized model boats when no tactics were used, bow-first drogues were over 90% effective at preventing capsize and stern-first drogues were 100% effective in preventing capsize in 39-foot wave conditions with a 30-foot boat (scale simulated). That's might powerful resistance to a storm if you consider that that scales to a MacGregor facing down constant 34 foot breaking waves.

MacGregors however have a serious caveat. I don't believe the rudders and outboard would stand up to being constantly swept in either the up or down position, and if the rudder brackets broke off, they'd open up holes in the stern that would be put under tremendous pressure during a breaking wave and would fill the cabin with water in a short time. And if the boat survived it, it would be unable to sail or self-rescue with damaged engine and rudders. It's also unlikely that you'd be able to keep the cabin from filling with water if the cockpit was constantly being swept as the companion way hatches aren't designed to be waterproof. It's very clear from the design that MacGregors are intended to face the water bow-to, with stern-to not really being an option.

I think a bow-first series drogue on a 3-point bridle between the two front cleats and the trailering D-ring, using an 8,000 lb. shackle to fix the bridle to the drogue, is the best possible extreme weather tactic for a MacGregor. This kind of drogue costs about $1000, and can be used as your routine anchor rode, in which case it would always be ready to deploy (you put an anchor on the end of a series drogue to weight them). I would drop all sails, tie the helm to center, put the centerboard all the way down, and put the outboard and one rudder down, with one rudder tied up. The purpose of this is to help keep the boat pointed to waves, but to preserve one rudder from wave dynamics so you can get home with it when the other rudder breaks off. The outboard skeg will be much more survivable. Put the engine in gear to fix the prop in order to increase drag on the stern and keep the boat pointed. The crew now shelters in the cabin and waits out the storm.

I think the only people who really need to worry about this are those of us who routinely do the crossing to the Bahamas or Catalina. I don't know of any other passages MacGregor owners make with any kind of regularity that would warrant being prepared for storm conditions of this nature in the U.S. I would like to hear what our members in Australia, Europe, and Asia think of some of their crossings.

Matt

[BOAT]

What happened at Avalon is not rare. I recall several times trying to grab the mooring buoy in the harbor in 2 foot swells. My mom and Dad were there in the 23 foot boat back in the 80's and the swells kept getting bigger so they hailed a shore boat and left the boat tied to the mooring. Dad knew it was gonna be bad. That night no one could be on the main street along the shore - all the people in town were pushed inland because waves were breaking right on the street! The next day they were able to return to their boat.

[Herschel]

I've been doing a lot of research into storm tactics

Nice analysis, Matt. It is clear you have given this considerable thought. I do not plan on making transits that would put me in that much of harms way, but it is good to be aware of worst case scenarios and our best strategy for dealing with them. Sometimes there is carry over in unexpected ways that pertains to novel situations that we can not anticipate. Thanks.

[BOAT]

I don't know much about Florida, but if you sail Southern California in the months of March, April, and May you can hit big stuff. Sunny blue sky but huge swells and high wind days - maybe 6 to 10 days of bad wind total in the course of those three months - and it's hard to tell what days it's going to happen on.
It's not usually a big deal on most west facing moorings but big swells can cause some grief in some of the smaller marinas: Ventura area, Oxnard and so forth. Oceanside is pretty much ALWAYS a rough mooring because it's just a tiny little thing out in the middle of the ocean. If the entrance is calm that's usually strange here and the anchorage is right next to the opening. At least the evenings are usually calm. It's better at a dock or a slip. There are only 2 MACs in Oceanside that I am aware of not counting 'boat'.

Long Beach/Los Angeles has a HUGE breakwater that stretches all the way from Cabrillo to Seal Beach! You can sail there for miles thinking your in the ocean but your really not - most of it is protected with a breakwater that is 2 miles away from shore. San Diego is always nice all year round. It's totally protected and it's HUGE! It's not as big as the area inside the Los Angeles breakwater but it is a lot more protected.

I really can't think of any place with milder conditions than Southern California. I would need more info from sailors around the world to tell me where there is a better place for weather. Maybe the coast of France? Monaco? Not really sure.

[drams_1999]

In south Florida, we have afternoon thunderstorms everyday from the end of May until the beginning of September. The forecast from NOAA is the same every day, i.e. "sunny with chance of afternoon thunderstorms".

I am extreme in that I keep my boat home most of that time of year. People tell me I'm crazy, being in Florida, and summer, and me refusing to go out on my boat. Other sailors go out anyway.

That being said, I was caught once the first year I had my boat. I had no place to go, no safe harbor. It was an afternoon thunderstorm like the kind we always have here at that time of year. Lots of wind, some rain, and lots of lightning. It lasted about 20 minutes, which is also normal.

I knew it was getting close. Lightning was striking nearby on land and in the sea. When it struck the sea, I felt a slight shock on the helm (like the kind you feel when you get a static shock). I was trying to get to a safe place to anchor.

When I got to the anchorage I dropped the hook and went below until it passed. (the sails were secured earlier when the storm was approaching).

When it was over, we lifted the hook and continued on our way. No harm done. we were rattled, since it was our first time caught in one, but otherwise, we were unharmed.

Fair winds!

[BOAT]

Wow, we don't have that lighting stuff - that's scary - I did not know it could shock you when it goes into the water. I don't like that.

I was in Titusville for the last launch of the Space Shuttle and I remember the day before it rained like crazy - the rain in Florida comes down so hard it's like being in a waterfall! When we go to Disneyland they always give us a real low rate at the campground because we show up in the summertime and it rains every day. We always carry ponchos when we are in Florida.

I think Matt is talking about the big seas, "High Seas" - out in the really bad stuff the swells get real big and then they start to crest at the top and crash down the face a bit. When that surf hits the boat it knocks it sideways and even if you are going straight it just stops the boat in it's tracks. I hate that stuff. I am pretty sure a MAC would get ripped up pretty good in that stuff - you know, the mast would bend, the rudder would break - but I don't think the MAC would sink. It's all about turning turtle and popping back up when it comes to storms. It's GONNA happen. It's best avoided. I don't want to mess up my boat.

[kadet]

I would like to hear what our members in Australia, Europe, and Asia think of some of their crossings.

We are like Flordia Thunderstorms are regular summer events. We have weather radar, storm warning via phone txt messaging and VMR and Coast Guard VHF weather report and warnings, normally the minimum warning for a TS is 2 hours. At 14 knots that gives a 32 mile window of escape. In 7 years of sailing the Mac I have been caught once in a TS and it was sort of on purpose cause I wanted to test my storm tactics. As I have said previously from my expereince unless your motor fails motoring slowly into the prevailing wind is the best option in these waterbagos.

A Mac should never be out in a storm that is going to last for hours of even days on end that's going to require a sea anchor or drogue. Also the deck hardware would never survive being hooked to a drogue in storm conditions it's too flimsy and the deck too thin. I barley trust those cleats when I am anchored in a strongish wind

The main reason to ride storms out at sea in hove to or under drogue is crew fatigue or boat damage, the boat is far safer while it is moving for the 20-40 min a thunderstorm lasts fatigue should not be and issue.

I agree the front of these boats are the best option to face the rough stuff, they wallow like pigs and want to broach if you try and run from waves.

BTW my definition of a safe harbour is not a harbour that lets breaking waves in, that maybe a harbour but it ain't safe
Looking at the maps of Avalon it is safe in a Westerly Northerly and a Southerly but in anything from the East it would be a nightmare. Proper all weather safe harbours have breakwalls all round and a narrow entrance.

Safest harbour for a Mac is in the car park of the boat ramp on it's trailer

[BOAT]

"never be out in a storm that is going to last for hours of even days on end "

Yes, if your going to traverse an ocean it's near impossible. The grief Mathew is getting from his friends that sail a MORGAN or a CATALINA is not really the same as what we get on the MAC. The boat mastreb sails is just as seaworthy as them all but it's a different experience because of that wide french design that has been used by so many solo world racers in the Vendee' Globe and other races. It takes the ocean crossing just fine but it's a modern design, not traditional, it takes folks a while to accept the new stuff - and any time you venture off the reservation your gonna get scoffers.. In that regard us guys with water ballast deserve a little bit of grief. Some sailors are not into modern hull shapes or ballast designs. Why are cruisers so nit-picky about this? Well, on any day of the week pull up a nice big satellite picture of the world and look at the weather out there in the middle of the ocean. I don't care where, Atlantic, Pacific, Indian Ocean, Bearing Sea, whatever. You will see that there is always (ALWAYS) "something" lurking about out there. That's the deal about the MAC: it DOES NOT cross the ocean. When you circumnavigate there is a dilemma you can't escape.

The question is:

Can you get all the way across without hitting whatever it is lurking around out there?

The answer is no - you just don't have the speed to out run or escape anything that is going to get between you and the other side of the ocean and that also means you will often take a full day or longer to get through a weather event. People who think they can cross an ocean without hitting a storm are totally foolish. It's possible, but the odds are very very very very much against it. It's like a pinball getting through a pinball machine without hitting anything - it's not likely. If the MAC is not the kind of boat that is going to survive a day in a storm then it's not going to cross any ocean. That may explain why no one has crossed an ocean in a MAC.

It's something I sure never planned to do. Like I said in another post - give me that MAC 70 footer and I'll go anywhere. Long and low and fast and heavy and ready to go under the waves like a submarine and a helm that's dry - that's the only way for me - but that's because I am VERY traditional. I'm not really into multi-hulls and wings and modern stuff, but there is nothing wrong with them, they still get across the pond and that's what counts.

The MAC M boat can't really do that.

[mastreb]

I would like to hear what our members in Australia, Europe, and Asia think of some of their crossings.

We are like Flordia Thunderstorms are regular summer events. We have weather radar, storm warning via phone txt messaging and VMR and Coast Guard VHF weather report and warnings, normally the minimum warning for a TS is 2 hours. At 14 knots that gives a 32 mile window of escape. In 7 years of sailing the Mac I have been caught once in a TS and it was sort of on purpose cause I wanted to test my storm tactics. As I have said previously from my expereince unless your motor fails motoring slowly into the prevailing wind is the best option in these waterbagos.

A Mac should never be out in a storm that is going to last for hours of even days on end that's going to require a sea anchor or drogue. Also the deck hardware would never survive being hooked to a drogue in storm conditions it's too flimsy and the deck too thin. I barley trust those cleats when I am anchored in a strongish wind

The main reason to ride storms out at sea in hove to or under drogue is crew fatigue or boat damage, the boat is far safer while it is moving for the 20-40 min a thunderstorm lasts fatigue should not be and issue.

I agree the front of these boats are the best option to face the rough stuff, they wallow like pigs and want to broach if you try and run from waves.

BTW my definition of a safe harbour is not a harbour that lets breaking waves in, that maybe a harbour but it ain't safe
Looking at the maps of Avalon it is safe in a Westerly Northerly and a Southerly but in anything from the East it would be a nightmare. Proper all weather safe harbours have breakwalls all round and a narrow entrance.

Safest harbour for a Mac is in the car park of the boat ramp on it's trailer

I concur with all of these tactics, however I'm quite certain the deck hardware will stand up to a drogue. The forces present on the drogue are never higher than the weight of the boat because series drogues do not shock-load. They build up tension slowly as the wave reverses course in a sinusoidal curve. Ultimately there's no more force on the deck hardware than anchoring against a current that is the same speed as the wave motion. My recommendation to use a three-point harness is just to guarantee that you don't lose the drogue if you lose a knot.

After the storm in Newport where we were shock-loading the cleats against the dock lines all night long, I was happily surprised to find no damage whatsoever.

My interest in the drogue for a Mac would be to counter those big seas BOAT mentioned in the Catalina channel. We like to go to Catalina over spring break when the kids are out of school, and you could be out in the more remote Channel Islands and suddenly and find yourself in these seas that you would not be able to anchor in and also can't safely run in. Having been in it, it's one of those things the boat can handle but the sailor can't, and it would be much safer to deploy a drogue and wait it out in the cabin than to be out in the cockpit at the helm.

We do get a lot more than 2 hours warning here though.

[kadet]

series drogues do not shock-load

Yep agree on that one

But having changed out the stock anchor roller and fitted supports for a bowsprit on my I saw that those cleats are held into 5-8mm of fibreglass with a backing washer the size a US quarter. I doubt they would hold more than 200kg. i.e 10% of the boats loaded weight.

The problem with lying to a sea anchor or drogue is not the weight of the boat it is the weight of cresting water pushing the boat which can far exceed the force applied on a boat anchored in a tidal stream or tied to a dock.

When I was looking at getting a multi-hull I researched series drogues a lot and found them to be wonderful things I even posted a link here to a video of our coast guard testing them for safe coastal bar crossings.
But if you look at the design of the hardware and the recommendations you will see that even the series drogues require some beefy attachment points. Even though they don't shock load by decreasing the acceleration caused by a breaking wave the angle of attack and the force of several tones of water pushing the boat can create loads that could exceed the weight of the actual displacement.

But if your only choice is to wait it out a series drogue is the best choice for modern light weight boats. Heaving to, para anchors and lying a hull just don't cut it for light weight boats.


This is from the Jordan Series Drogue manual

Attachments on the Hull
The hull attachments for the drogue should be as far outboard and as far aft as possible.
I have no information on the ultimate strength of a typical sheet winch installation, and it would be difficult to evaluate each structure. Unfortunately, a winch is not an ideal structure, since the load is applied above the deck line and tends to overturn the winch and pull it out. The optimum attachment for the drogue is clearly a strap similar to a chainplate, bolted to the hull at the corners of the transom and extending aft with a shackle.

For a load of 14,000 lbs, a strap ¼ x 2.25 x 18 inches attached with six 3/8 bolts would provide a conservative design.

A large steel cleat would be acceptable if the deck is thick solid fiberglass and a steel plate is provided underneath.

[BOAT]

It's better to lose the drogue anchor than to damage the boat - and in that sense it's all about the anchor itself, and the anchor line. Don't use an anchor that is for a 60 foot boat and don't tie it off with 1/2" line.

We used them and abused them and lost a lot of cheap drogues but preserved the boat. Just keep a few on hand - they fold up pretty neat and are lightweight to carry and stow (at least the kind WE used were). There are indeed times when an anchor can pull the deck too much and separate it from the hull. In fact that very thing happened to Robin Lee Graham sailing the very sturdy Carl Lapworth CAL24 on his round the world trip. Separation of the hull and deck IS a major thing that all boat builders are seriously conscious of and the reason why Roger talks about it so much in his videos about the MAC 26M. All boat builders work hard to have what they think is the best way to bond the deck to the hull - compression fittings, jack plates, some use collars and bolts - everyone talks about the best way to do it because it is so important. 99% of the time that a boat is deemed no longer "Seaworthy" it's because of failures along the deck hull bond.

The cleats should fail BEFORE the deck fails if they are mated properly. That's why jack plates for shrouds don't connect to the deck - they go through to the hull. If you want a cleat that is never going to fail no matter what than I suggest you jack plate that cleat to the hull. The forward anchor hardware and forestay plate on the 26M is jack plated down into the hull at the bow - I have seen the jack plate with my own eyes when I installed the bow vent.

On a well engineered boat there are things that are designed to fail believe it or not. Failure of a cleat is better than failure of a deck, and so forth. Sometimes I wonder if beefing up my rudders is such a great idea because I need to consider the hole in the back of my boat it could create. What's better, a lost rudder or a hole below the waterline?

[Ixneigh]

A jordon series drogue and a MacGregor powersailor should not be used in the same paragraph let alone sentence. IF you need to make a last ditch survival dash for open sea because of zombie attack or some such, just steal one of those huge boats in the slip next to you
Ix

[BOAT]

On a well engineered boat there are things that are designed to fail believe it or not. Failure of a cleat is better than failure of a deck, and so forth. Sometimes I wonder if beefing up my rudders is such a great idea because I need to consider the hole in the back of my boat it could create. What's better, a lost rudder or a hole below the waterline?

Engineered weakness is not really just in a MAC rudder system - the fact that someone made a system that bends before it breaks is not really a minus in my book:

Just to make a point about what I am trying to say here just think about the professional race boats that race all the way around the world solo. The solo race boats (usually about 60 feet - just about as big as you want to go if your all alone) have reasons why they don't finish the race. Wanna know the number one reason why these extremely well designed boats don't finish a race?

#1. BROKEN RUDDER
#2. Busted Mast
#3. Keel Failure
#4. Wounded Crew
#5. Capsize

If the best boats in the world are loosing rudders then I don't feel so inferior about the weak rudders on the MAC. Better a bent rudder than no rudder - better no rudder than a hole below the waterline.