Unintended rudder modification

[Todd]

So my port rudder has some new gouges in it from the prop after last week's trip to the lake.

Why the port and not the starboard? Well, because I was using the port rudder for steerage when approaching the dock and shores. I put the rudder horizontal with the water so it was submerged bit not vertical. Then I learned the hard way twice ( because I really need 2 times to learn) that with the rudder in the horizontal position and the motor raised to avoid prop strikes on the rocks it would hit if I turned to tightly.

So my question is....when approaching shallows how do I manage the rudders? Seems like if I put them in the full down position with the rope tight I risk damaging the rudder because it won't give way if I hit something in the water. If I lower them down without tightening the ropes then I have loose ropes floating that could bind in the prop.

Without the rudder down and just using the motor the doesn't have good low speed control so trying to understand what the correct way to do it is. Any advice?

[DaveC426913]

I would never have my rudders in any positon but deployed or retracted. Having them out is a good way to mangle the bracket, if not snap the blade.

I guess my soluion would be to steer by motor alone. Which admittedly, kinda sucks.

One thing you can do is employ a self-releasing cleat. It holds until the rudder gets a kick, then it pops out.

At least one member has them:
http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/in ... ?view=2004
(pic1: that's not a normal cleat - it pop open under pressure)

[Herschel]

I guess my solution would be to steer by motor alone

I agree. I did a similar thing when I ran aground once and was trying to back off and just lost the bubble on where my rudders were. When I turned sharp I chewed up one of my rudders. So I follow the protocol of "either all the way up or all the way down". Might leave a little centerboard down to give it a bit of a keel in shallow water, but no rudders.

[ris]

We have traveled 2700 miles with no rudders on the boat buuut we have a 26 X. We only use swing keel when going into marinas. We are a motor only X. We have no sails on the boat for this loop trip. So I would say have the rudders up for sure on a X but do not know about M with a dagger board.

[bobbob]

Self-releasing cleat - fantastic idea! I'm putting one on this weekend. I was always worried about this in shallow water docking (either damaging the rudder or getting stuck if the rudder is cleated down)

[sailboatmike]

We have traveled 2700 miles with no rudders on the boat buuut we have a 26 X. We only use swing keel when going into marinas. We are a motor only X. We have no sails on the boat for this loop trip. So I would say have the rudders up for sure on a X but do not know about M with a dagger board.

I find the ability to put some head sail out makes the boat behave better when getting hit by swells on the rear quater. the boat starts to yaw badly as our channel runs south to north and the swells of 2 or 3 feet come from the south west, it can be like riding a bucking bronco, pull out some head sail and the prevailing wind driving the swells holds the bow much straighter and it becomes a smoother ride

[Todd]

One thing you can do is employ a self-releasing cleat. It holds until the rudder gets a kick, then it pops out.

At least one member has them:
http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/in ... ?view=2004
(pic1: that's not a normal cleat - it pop open under pressure)

....so I stared at that self releasing cleat and then went and stared at my boat.
I would have to see his in action to finish the visualization that I'm not getting to on my own.

However it seems like if I mount the cleat the opposite direction of what would be normal it would then serve the purpose of cleating the rope and releasing if the rudder kicks and and pulls the rope out of the cleat. Essentially it is rigged to hold the rope not keep the rudder down.

Which leads me to a second question or thought. Why not have a cam cleat when pulling the rudders up and down? I am finding pulling the rudders up and adjusting them to be quite difficult using just the ropes even while the previous owner put pulleys on the rudder to allow for some additional mechanical advantage. Has anyone modified the rudder rigging in that way?

[DaveC426913]

....so I stared at that self releasing cleat and then went and stared at my boat.
I would have to see his in action to finish the visualization that I'm not getting to on my own.


However it seems like if I mount the cleat the opposite direction of what would be normal it would then serve the purpose of cleating the rope and releasing if the rudder kicks and and pulls the rope out of the cleat. Essentially it is rigged to hold the rope not keep the rudder down.

The cleat should hold the rudder downhaul line. So a good thump on the rudder on it should pop it out.

Which leads me to a second question or thought. Why not have a cam cleat when pulling the rudders up and down?

That's what I installed. One cleat, two lines - one at a time. Hold rudder up or holds rudder down.

I am finding pulling the rudders up and adjusting them to be quite difficult using just the ropes even while the previous owner put pulleys on the rudder to allow for some additional mechanical advantage. Has anyone modified the rudder rigging in that way?

Yup. Several of us. A simple block on the trailing edge of the rudder provides a 2:1 advantage. Love it. I highly recommend it.

I've been trying draw up a diagram but it's not easy.

Here's a mod with photo:
http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/in ... ?view=1887

My variation on this uses only a single continuous line and ensures that I don't get confused between the uphaul grabby-part and the downhaul grabby-part.
Essentially, run the downhaul part of the loop on the outboard of your pushpit railing and run the uphaul part of the loop on the inboard side of the pushpit railing. There should be a loop in the cockpit that is always slack.
(So my mnemonic: down is outside, up is inside).

[Todd]

....so I stared at that self releasing cleat and then went and stared at my boat.
I would have to see his in action to finish the visualization that I'm not getting to on my own.


However it seems like if I mount the cleat the opposite direction of what would be normal it would then serve the purpose of cleating the rope and releasing if the rudder kicks and and pulls the rope out of the cleat. Essentially it is rigged to hold the rope not keep the rudder down.

The cleat should hold the rudder downhaul line. So a good thump on the rudder on it should pop it out.

Which leads me to a second question or thought. Why not have a cam cleat when pulling the rudders up and down?

That's what I installed. One cleat, two lines - one at a time. Hold rudder up or holds rudder down.

I am finding pulling the rudders up and adjusting them to be quite difficult using just the ropes even while the previous owner put pulleys on the rudder to allow for some additional mechanical advantage. Has anyone modified the rudder rigging in that way?

Yup. Several of us. A simple block on the trailing edge of the rudder provides a 2:1 advantage. Love it. I highly recommend it.

I've been trying draw up a diagram but it's not easy.

Here's a mod with photo:
http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/in ... ?view=1887

My variation on this uses only a single continuous line and ensures that I don't get confused between the uphaul grabby-part and the downhaul grabby-part.
Essentially, run the downhaul part of the loop on the outboard of your pushpit railing and run the uphaul part of the loop on the inboard side of the pushpit railing. There should be a loop in the cockpit that is always slack.
(So my mnemonic: down is outside, up is inside).

Thank you Dave, just so I am clear did you install a cam cleat or the self releasing cleat?

[DaveC426913]

Thank you Dave, just so I am clear did you install a cam cleat or the self releasing cleat?

I have cam cleats. I'd convert, but I'm rarely in shallow water.

[DaveC426913]

Like I said. It's not easy to diagram.

Note: you may not have that railing/stanchion. I do because I have after-market stern seats.

[BOAT]

Rudders ALL the way up in shallow water - no exceptions.

Look, the MAC is a really crappy power boat at slow speeds - that's just the way it is. It's a HUGE struggle to maneuver the MAC with no rudders and no daggerboard. That's where the power boaters have skills we don't have. Those guys are better at it than we are - no point in arguing that. They know how to turn the motor this way and that and make the boat move in all kinds of ways we don't. It's not easy, but you can learn to use the throttle and motor alone to maneuver the MAC - and without ballast in the wind it gets REALLY hairy!! I am really really BAD at it, but I have seen other do it.

One trick that Mike Inmon taught us on his boat was to go BACKWARDS! I have used that trick many times - it helps a lot - The boat will go slower because the transom is flat so you can add a bit more power without overtaking the dock. In reverse the boat stops faster when you cut the throttle. The boat tends to follow wherever the motor is pointing in reverse too - it looks really stupid but it works. When people ask me what the heck I am doing I just tell them I trained on a Clorox bottle and don't know how to drive a boat when I'm off my meds. That seems to make people leave me alone.

[Todd]

Rudders ALL the way up in shallow water - no exceptions.

When people ask me what the heck I am doing I just tell them I trained on a Clorox bottle and don't know how to drive a boat when I'm off my meds. That seems to make people leave me alone.

....I'm still laughing

[DaveC426913]

I'll have to remember that one - moving in reverse.

The Mac turns by the stern, which has given me more than one scare in the close quarters of a marina.

Nuthin' like being at the helm, and turning away from the "S.S. Thurston Howell" - only to have it loom close enough to see the gold foil inlay in the rubrail.

[ecossebob]

Hi ris.
I have a 2002 26 X and am thinking to remove the mast and use the motor only.
What OB do you use and what capacity of gas and where do you store it?.
Do you have a backup OB for insurance?
Any advice so I can avoid problems?.
Thanks Bob.