one or two lines of reef points?

[Herschel]

I am considering purchasing a new mainsail for my 26X. My current main has just one line of reef points. I have always thought that when I replaced it, I would get two lines to give me more control in moderate and strong winds. But, I am questioning just how that would work out. Do you have two reefing clew outhaul lines pre-rigged from the boom to the reefed clews and back to blocks and jam cleats on the boom? That would seem to be a bit busy for regular sailing. Roughly at what wind speeds do you reef a double set? I generally reef my single reefed main at about 12 knots depending on with whom I am sailing. If I don't go out in much over 15 knots, is a second set of reef knots really necessary? I guess you can see I am sort of talking myself out of two sets of reef knots. But would like to hear discussion from folks that have gone to two.

[yukonbob]

Might as well put the second reef in. Better than taking it off and shipping it back...Put the second reef in around 20 Knts of wind. Why limit your sailing to 15; just starts getting fun at 15

[1st Sail]

definitely 2 and I would consider a third. My sailing time is still limited so I don't necessarily get to pick the good weather days. Having 3 hank on head sails 150, 100, 60 + a main with 3 reefs keeps the boat trimmed and on its feet and comfortable up to 25mph wind. I'm limited to midwest lakes and the upper Miss. river. I have not had to contend with waves above 4ft. My fastest sog on a broad reach was 7.87mph/6.84knts with little heel. I am always amazed at how well the boat handles in 18-25mph winds with the main in the third reef and the 60 jib. Heel typically ranges 10-20°. Last summer we were on a reach and caught a good blow for a few minutes which pinned us to 30-35°. We clocked winds in that area with a hand held anemometer in the 30+mph range. With a boat designed to sail effectively 10-20°heel I just don't bother to push it over when I can reduce sail and heel respectively and still maintain great speed. All things considered you can sail very comfortable in 15-20 and not make anyone uncomfortable... and you don't spill the cabin!

[Herschel]

definitely 2 and I would consider a third. My sailing time is still limited so I don't necessarily get to pick the good weather days. Having 3 hank on head sails 150, 100, 60 + a main with 3 reefs keeps the boat trimmed and on its feet and comfortable up to 25mph wind. I'm limited to midwest lakes and the upper Miss. river. I have not had to contend with waves above 4ft. My fastest sog on a broad reach was 7.87mph/6.84knts with little heel. I am always amazed at how well the boat handles in 18-25mph winds with the main in the third reef and the 60 jib. Heel typically ranges 10-20°. Last summer we were on a reach and caught a good blow for a few minutes which pinned us to 30-35°. We clocked winds in that area with a hand held anemometer in the 30+mph range. With a boat designed to sail effectively 10-20°heel I just don't bother to push it over when I can reduce sail and heel respectively and still maintain great speed. All things considered you can sail very comfortable in 15-20 and not make anyone uncomfortable... and you don't spill the cabin!

Do you have two clew outhaul lines, one for each set of reef lines? If so, is it any different than just having one? I was thinking it might be a easy to get them tangled or fouled.

[sailboatmike]

The standard OEM Mac sails single reef point is the equivalent of a second reef on most boats, most would never get reef down as far at our standard reef point unless the conditions are way past what one should be out in.

Go the two reef points, set the first one on a single line reefing system, with good sails I think the second reef would only be for REALLY heavy conditions, but its always handy to have and for just a few extra dollars

[Tomfoolery]

The standard OEM Mac sails single reef point is the equivalent of a second reef on most boats, most would never get reef down as far at our standard reef point unless the conditions are way past what one should be out in.

Go the two reef points, set the first one on a single line reefing system, with good sails I think the second reef would only be for REALLY heavy conditions, but its always handy to have and for just a few extra dollars

That's my take on it, too. The OEM single reef point makes the main the size of a Kleenex, but in really skanky weather, it's great to have. More for the ability to stabilize the boat, along with a sliver of jib for balance, than for speedy sailing. I've been caught out on Lake Ontario with nowhere to go (bays and other protected areas are few and far between on the south shore) and the wind piping up to 30 kts, and while the boat was OK, it wasn't much fun in the nasty chop. Worse with no canvas up, so a patch of sail is a good thing, for stability.

Two reef points would be ideal, IMO. The second being where the only reef point is now.

Oh, and my sail isn't loose-footed, so I just uncleat the outhaul, run it through the reefing clew, around the boom, through the clew again, and back to the cleat. With the bolt rope in the slot, the sail isn't going anywhere, even in a blow.

[Seapup]

But, I am questioning just how that would work out. Do you have two reefing clew outhaul lines pre-rigged from the boom to the reefed clews and back to blocks and jam cleats on the boom? That would seem to be a bit busy for regular sailing.

I followed what sumner did and similarly put two extra $3 horn cleats on the boom and left the line on them. No extra lines dangling on the sail to complicate things.


http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... ing-8.html




My North sail was a shelf foot so normal outhaul was adjusted often with a jam cleat, but reefs I just wanted pulled down flat so a horn cleat was fine.

Main outhaul stays attached, rearward cleat to pull down flattening reef and reefpoint #1.

Second cleat pulled down reefpoint #2 & #3.


On the original main I used the deep factory reefpoint frequently. On my aftermarket sail that equaled the second reef and I rarely ever used that row (or the first). I used the flattening reef since it didn't necessitate messing with intermediate ties (quick and easy) and reef 3 the most since our winds were usually light enough or strong & gusty without much between.

[sailboatmike]

Totally agree, the boat is not only more stable but also and more importantly more comfortable with just some sail up in challenging conditions, especially if the swell is coming from abeam or aft of abeam.

The weight balance reminds me of a Porsche 911, with that heavy motor hanging behind the pivot point of the boat

[Tomfoolery]

The weight balance reminds me of a Porsche 911, with that heavy motor hanging behind the pivot point of the boat

Or a Corvair. Before the rear suspension design changes were implemented.

[dxg4848]

I was considering new main sail with two reef points a few years ago when I had hank-on jib. After upgrading to roller furler I found that boat handles well in 20 - 22 knts with just a little bit of head sail out and reefed main let out as needed. I wouldn't sail in anything higher than that. I am happy with one reef point.

[dlandersson]

That's a nice point. I have two reef points - but the sail came that way from Judy - original purchaser had goofed.

Anytime I need more than one reef point, I'm not going out - I'm going to the bar.

The standard OEM Mac sails single reef point is the equivalent of a second reef on most boats, most would never get reef down as far at our standard reef point unless the conditions are way past what one should be out in.

Go the two reef points, set the first one on a single line reefing system, with good sails I think the second reef would only be for REALLY heavy conditions, but its always handy to have and for just a few extra dollars

[1st Sail]

Herschel,
I just have a long single outhaul/clew line with the oem horn cleat at the end of the boom. The line is long enough that I can pass thru any of the reef eyes make a loop around the boom and return back and secure to the cleat. Nothing fancy but easy to secure from the cockpit.
I like Sumner's cleat layout best. You could still use a single outhaul/clew line from the cockpit.

With the theoretical hull speed around 6knts I figure I would sail in comfort. I find myself sailing in the 3-5knt range no matter the wind speed. Setting sails for conditions I can comfortably sail heeled 10-20' from light winds to 20knts/hr. 20 knt wind bare poles 2knts +/-, add 60 jib +/-1knt, add 3rd reef +/- 1knt. All things considered I'm still sailing 3-5knts as the wind blows and the boat is heeled in the sweet spot where it is designed to sail and the crew is comfortable. Best of all the boat is always balanced on all points of sail.

[Herschel]

Anytime I need more than one reef point, I'm not going out - I'm going to the bar.

I think we are "kindred spirits". No pun intended! As I was contemplating my new main, I got hit with some really unexpected expenses like new fencing and a major roof repair on my travel trailer. So, that $85 for the extra line of reef points kind of felt like the proverbial "straw". I went ahead and ordered my new main with just one set of reef points. I am sure there will be times when I may regret that, but I have been happy with just one set for 13 years. Perhaps, I have adjusted my sailing habits to fit that configuration. But I am impressed with how folks have simplified the clew outhaul arrangement with multiple sets of reef points. And, as always very appreciative of you guys sharing your experience and opinions. With four sailboats in my "armada", all different sizes and types, my "go to guy" for sail work is Scott Loomis at Doyle sails in Stuart, FL. He does work under Super Sails label at slightly lower price but same quality as Doyle, and I think I got a fair price (custom made, 150 sq. ft., 5.53 oz. Dacron, 1 sets of reefs, 4 battens, leech line, slide-on-foot, reinforced grommets on leech for American flag, Telltales, black "M", and sail bag) with price well under 1K.

[Doug W]

Our new (as of 2016) WarpDrive loose footed main from Judy B has two reef points. Too many times we've sailed in conditions where the single reefed main and a bath-towel sized foresail showing still overpowered the boat on a beat to windward--and on our normal lake with the way the land and water interact, it seems that we are always beating to windward no matter what direction (hence the saying on our pirate flag, "the beatings will continue until morale improves".)

Although I've only used the second reef point a couple times, it really helps stabilize and drive the boat in a good blow!

Doug