Turnbuckles and loos gauge

[whgoffrn]

I've always felt like my stays have been too loose but with no way to check tension and now with considering a trip quite some time in the future next year to the exumas... I'm curious if replacing the mac26x stock hardware with turn buckles for side stays (already have them for back and in rollerfurler) and getting a loos tension gauge is worth it or not necessary and the $ should go elsewhere....ive always wondered if my stays were too loose ....i had two bent spreader bars after being caught in a storm 2 years ago and I suspect I don't have tension tight enough
And honestly I don't know what the tension should be anyways...any input is appreciated

[Azzarac]

A properly tuned rig will make the sail much better in my experience. I purchased a Loos gauge a few years ago for this purpose, however, I kept the original adjusters. It didn't seem worth it to replace them with turnbuckles.

[sailboatmike]

Rig tension is a bit hit and miss.

When the instruction books says "Not too loose and not too tight" it makes it very hard to tune it for best performance.

While I admire Rogers work not giving some parameters too work between makes it really difficult.

As we know the X and the M are not the best boats at pointing, so getting the rig tension right is essential for going to windward.

You have no hope of pointing high without a nice tight forestay

[whgoffrn]

In doing some searching I think I've read 280lbs for upper and 240lbs for lower?
And basically crank the turnbuckle in the roller furler down as far as possible to remove as much rake as possible and letting some out on the back stay to compensate
Is that correct??

[Herschel]

This is a bit "out in left field" so to speak; I do admire you guys that keep older engines running. I have a 2 h.p. Honda for my dinghy that is a 4-stroke, but about 10-11 years old. It is nice to get the use out of these old engines. I am not very mechanically skilled so I rely on marine techs for the heavy lifting and keeping my 50 h.p. engines running. My 1998 X, which I bought in 2003, had a 50 h.p. Merc 4-stroke carbureted engine. I began having trouble with it about 4 years ago and went through a bit of money with a marine repair shop with a good rep before I just got concerned about reliability in key situations. I boat in areas with bridges and current in narrow channels (rivers and ICW). I have been in situations upstream of bridges with current and/or strong wind operating such that an engine failure would have been catastrophic and potentially dangerous. Before I replaced the carbureted Merc, I tried very hard to stay on top of the gummed up carburetor problem by running the engines regularly, using non-ethanol gas, and having them serviced on time. Still, I ran into failures to run and the need for tows back to the dock. In 2013 I replaced my Merc with a 50 h.p. 4-stroke fuel injected Yamaha, and I have never looked back. I love its dependability and not having to deal with carburetors. I still make a point to run it frequently, use non-ethanol gas, and have it serviced on time. I say this just to get out there that there is "life after divorce" when we finally say "enough is enough" with the starting and running problems.

[paul I]

In doing some searching I think I've read 280lbs for upper and 240lbs for lower?
And basically crank the turnbuckle in the roller furler down as far as possible to remove as much rake as possible and letting some out on the back stay to compensate
Is that correct??

There is a bit more to it than that.

The owners manual notes that there should be about 4 degrees of mast rake, measured at the mast step. It doesn't sound like a lot, but it actually is quite a bit. When I changed out my standing rigging this year I measured and set things up very close to that 4 degree number. Once in the marina it definitely looks like a lot of rake compared to other nearby boats which appear to have little to no mast rake (all are fixed keel boats). The mast is about 30 feet long. From a geometric perspective, a 4 degree rake pitches the top of the mast about 26" back from vertical. So what you really want to do is adjust the forestay turnbuckle to produce this 4 degrees of rake, not remove it completely.

In addition to the rake, there is the pre-bend. This is the amount of bow in the mast. It should be about 3 inches and comes from the tension differences in the stays. The tighter the uppers in relation to the lowers, the more bend. As you reduce forestay tension, the shroud tension also lessens and the amount of bend changes accordingly. The center of the bend itself appears close to the area of the spreaders.

The backstay never even comes into play when adjusting tension. Leave it slack while adjusting. Tighten it so it is snug when the adjustment is complete. Don't bother measuring tension. On most boats with swept back spreaders (the Macs included) you can pretty much omit the backstay, but most sailors feel more secure with it in place.

All that said, I'm still not sure I have it set properly. It just looks like too much mast rake, at least more than I had had before the rigging change. I'm going to sail this season with it and see how it performs.

[sailboatmike]

Consensus seems to be that 4 degrees is too much and makes the boat want to round up too much and reduces the into the wind performance.

I would try 2 1/2 to 3 degrees max

[Herschel]

Sorry guys; got my engine comment in the wrong thread.

[whgoffrn]

I had read that the amount of rake in these boats are too much also ..... I don't plan to drill through the mast to move the shroud up so all I was going to do is simply turn the turnbuckles in the forestay/ roller furler all the way down to remove as much as possible without drilling ....from my understanding that still isn't quite enough but helps slightly to reduce rake...please correct me if I'm wrong ..

.. I bent my spreader bars last year and didn't notice they were bent till I a week or so later so I can only speculate how both were bent (up) is that I didn't have enough tension on them and when the mast bent it pulled them up because I didn't have enough tension on them ..... is 280lbs upper 240lbs lower sound right?

[paul I]

I had read that the amount of rake in these boats are too much also ..... I don't plan to drill through the mast to move the shroud up so all I was going to do is simply turn the turnbuckles in the forestay/ roller furler all the way down to remove as much as possible without drilling ....from my understanding that still isn't quite enough but helps slightly to reduce rake...please correct me if I'm wrong ..

.. I bent my spreader bars last year and didn't notice they were bent till I a week or so later so I can only speculate how both were bent (up) is that I didn't have enough tension on them and when the mast bent it pulled them up because I didn't have enough tension on them ..... is 280lbs upper 240lbs lower sound right?

I think the tensions you have listed are pretty reasonable. just be sure when you are done adjusting the mast is straight port to starboard.

Those spreader bars are pretty easy to bend due to their thin wall construction. You can beef them up substantially by putting wooden dowels in them. I don't remember the inside diameter of the spreaders, but I do recall getting off the shelf dowels to fit relatively easily. The place they bend the easiest is right where they bolt to the mast attachment. So, let the dowels extend to the inside edge of the spreader and then drill out for the holes. You probably wont be able to get dowels into the spreaders if they were bent. Best to get a new set from BWY.

[sailboatmike]

Adjusting the mast rake is a total rig adjustment, not just the forestay.

Just winding up the forestay tension will bow the middle of the mast forward, and while some "prebend" isnt a bad thing it shouldnt be overly pronounced.

Certainly wind up the tension on the forestay to remove the slack from it, as a tight forestay is a good thing but dont over tension it.

This is the situation that turnbuckles make adjustment easier on all your stays.

I think one of the reasons Roger went for 4 degrees of rake is that its always safer for a boat to round up rather than hey pushed down wind causing crash gybes, as many Mac buyers would be newby sailors much safer to be rounding up and less chance of damage to the equipment and crew.

The problem I have with that is that when out on the water its hard to balance the sails if the tendency is to round up too much (center off effort is pushed too far back), on a X you can lift your centerboard a bit to compensate

IMHO better to go with slightly less than the 4 degrees and use your furler (if you have one) to balance the sails if she is wanting to turn down wind, reduce headsail

[whgoffrn]

I thought about adding a Johnson lever under the furler but I'm not even sure where id begin with on the math equation to figure out how much higher the forestay would need to go up the mast to compensate for the extra length for the Johnson lever + remove some rake ....might as well do both if I'm going to drill through the mast....but no idea how much higher I would need to go

[Sumner]

I added the Johnson lever and moved the forestay up along with the top shrouds. I was replacing the rigging anyway with a 5/32 forestay and wanted to replace the shrouds and backstay also with new.



Above is a picture of where the new forestay is compared to the old one (remember my boat is a S). There is a closeup here....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... ng-17.html

I could of made the forestay a bit shorter as it turned out but this all has worked great. If you move it just a few inches I wouldn't worry about moving the top shrouds also but I moved further than that and wanted the loads from the forestay and shrouds meeting as they do on the stock setup.

If you don't want to try to figure it out with math, I didn't, here is a method you can use. Make up the new forestay with the Johnson Lever and furler so that the forestay works with your furler. I had riggingonly.com make up the new forestay and bought the parts to make up the other standing rigging.....


http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... ng-24.html

Take a guess where you think the new forestay combo should go and attach it to the mast with some line. I'd have the turnbuckle in the center or just past center position so that you have adjustment each way. Have the shrouds in the stock position and pull the mast up with about how much rake you want and see if the forestay needs to go higher or lower. Once you know where you need it then you can drill the mast and move the mast hound up and attach the forestay.

You can now take the upper shrouds off and move them up the mast also if needed and see how short they are and take measurements to see how much longer they need to be. Make new ones or have them made.

I like the stock shroud adjusters and am not interested in going to turnbuckles. From what I've read they might trailer easier than turnbuckles if you are setting up and taking down often. Less parts and you can inspect them easier. I set my rigging up being a cruiser and don't mess with it. I also tension higher than most do and believe I have in the low 300 range for the shrouds and forestay. There is absolutely no mast pumping going on. The nice thing about the Johnson lever is once you set the tension it is easy to repeat it as you don't have to mess with the turnbuckle on the forestay every time you pin it any more. I set my tension with the forestay setup without the foil on it for the furler. That way I could tension it with the loos gauge at the same time I tensioned the shrouds.

Use the forestay and the lower shrouds to get the mast at the rake you want and then start adjusting the uppers if you want more bend. I don't have much bend and ...



... I haven't measured the rake but bet it is only 2 degrees or so on my S. I kept adjusting the upper and lower shrouds to keep the mast where I wanted it and to have approximately the same tension on the uppers as the lowers when done. The boat sails very well and if it is heeled over and on rails will still round up in a major gust. It has never done anything scary.

I also left the original forestay attached to the lower point on a hound there. and it lays down the mast and is tied off there. I can still attach it if I wanted to a new fitting at the bow....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... ng-17.html

.... I've always wanted to run my old hank-on jib or Genoa on it with it out on one side and the Genoa on the furler off the other side. This is used by larger boats with an inner forestay on downwind crossings. You don't have to worry about accidental jibes like you can have running wing on wing with the main and the foresail. Still haven't done it though but could use it if I had a problem with the furler sail or the furler.

Sumner

============================
1300 miles to the Bahamas and back -- 2015

The MacGregor 26-S

The Endeavour 37

Trips to Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

[Tomfoolery]

I thought about adding a Johnson lever under the furler but I'm not even sure where id begin with on the math equation to figure out how much higher the forestay would need to go up the mast to compensate for the extra length for the Johnson lever + remove some rake ....might as well do both if I'm going to drill through the mast....but no idea how much higher I would need to go

I made this sketch a while back for someone. It may need to be tweaked a little, but it will give you an idea of how much to move the hound to absorb the required additional length of the Johnson lever. There's no rake shown, but I can adjust the drawing easily if you (or anyone else) wants something more accurate.



As to forestay tension, as others have said, you can't adjust that independently. The mast is a pole held in position with what amounts to three ropes - change the tension in any one of them, and you change the tension in the other two (ignoring the lower stays). So set the forestay length for the rake you want, and play with the side stay tension to achieve the 300 lb or so upper tension, with the corresponding lower tension for the lower shrouds which will give you the mast prebend you want (around 3", also as already stated).

I have less than 4 degrees rake in my mast, and I had way less for a while, but I ran out of turnbuckle on the forestay, with the upper side stays (or shrouds) at full extension, so I ended up with too slack in the rig. Shrouds went sloppy loose when heeled in a good breeze (not good, and had mast pumping issues, also not good). Putting some more rake in the mast allowed me to shorten the side stays to get more tension in them, and the turnbuckle is not as fully contracted as before, but my stay tension is where it should be, and I only have a little more rake than when it had very little. I haven't measured it, but I can at some point if it matters.

I use my MRS to back off the side stays until they're loose, make the adjustments, then crank it back up and pin the forestay (and slacken the MRS) and check the side stay tensions with my Loose gauge. Much easier than the two-awl method under load, IMO, but that's a personal choice.

And I wouldn't use turnbuckles on the side stays, as they bend easily when stepping/unstepping/trailering the boat, whereas the factory adjusters are really tough. And it's not like these are racing boats where you need higher resolution on length adjustment - assuming they're not at the end of their range, and you have holes overlapping, you get 1/8" adjustment per hole pair (vernier), which is pretty small, and you can get even finer adjustment by taking a turn or two on the forestay turnbuckle if it's not bottomed out.

Oh, and I don't have a Johnson lever for the forstay, even with the higher rig tension - I just crank down on the MRS, and use a tool I made from a leftover stay adjuster and a piece of wood with a short rope which loops around the furler drum, and levers down (pivoted off the other hole in the chainplate) a little to make it easier to make the pin. I can do it with just my hands with no sail on the furler, but with even just the working jib, I need the extra help of the tool to make the pin, or two people (but I'm always rigging it alone), or a slacker rig, but that's exactly what I don't want (see above), so the tool is really helpful.

[whgoffrn]

I guess it doesn't take that long to adjust the side stays back down to 280 /240 ..... if you are doing it on land....i bought the tool a couple years back from bwy and never put much use to it... I hate the idea of drilling higher up on my mast and getting the measurements wrong
If the mast to deck angle was an exact 90 degrees the math would be easy a squared + b squared = c squared (pathagoreum equation spelling??? Lol)
BUT since it's not 90 degrees exact and the mast plate isn't perfectly level with where the forestay attaches .... you can't do the math without knowing at least one of the angles and I just can't seem to drill a hole through the mast without knowing for sure .... I guess I could adjust the turnbuckle at the halfway point and Johnson lever also at the halfway point to compensate for those and do as close as possible and id have 2 adjustment points to compensate for using the math for a right triangle when it's truly not a perfect right triangle???

Your diagram shows to drill the holes 8 inches up is that just for the added length of the lever or lever and to also remove rake? If I'm drilling I'd want to kill 2 birds with one stone