How much rake? ....

[Jimmyt]

Wheel or rudder, weather helm is the same. It is the tendency of the boat to turn to weather; requiring slight steering to lee to counteract the tendency.

If you are sailing with a tilted outboard connected, you need to remedy that first - before making any rig adjustments. You will kick yourself for not doing it sooner. Guess how I know...

[DaveC426913]

Wheel or rudder, weather helm is the same. It is the tendency of the boat to turn to weather; requiring slight steering to lee to counteract the tendency.

I always assumed the "helm" part is a reference to the way you must turn the tiller to correct. You push the tiller "to weather" (which has the effect of turning the boat to lee).

But I guess that's a little too reductive, since it's opposite with a wheel.

And now I'm learning that rounding up is also mitigated by anything that eases heel - such as sitting on the high side. I tend to not go far from the helm when heeling. I guess I should start.

If you are sailing with a tilted outboard connected, you need to remedy that first - before making any rig adjustments. You will kick yourself for not doing it sooner. Guess how I know...

Yeah, I know I will enjoy that once I set it up. I've been dragging my feet on it because I also know it's a double safety hazard:

• Anything that delays the ability to switch modes from wind to power as fast as possible is a risk. That's partly due to the waters I sail in and partly due to my sailing habits. For example, I won't be able to sail my usual 20 yards off leeward rocks; I'll need much more leeway as a safety margin. And I'll have to switch long before entering the super busy city harbour channel.
• Any additional complication in the steering of the motor means an increased chance of steering failure - usually at the worst time.

[Jimmyt]

The boat should be extremely heeled over before the rudder loses its bite and you round up. If you’re rounding up before you’re uncomfortably heeled, you may have a mast rake issue.

The motor disconnect kit has a stationary point to connect the motor in the straight ahead position. You can simply drop the tilt, fire up the motor, and steer with the rudders if you get in a jamb. I only need directional thrust in tight spots during docking or launching.

[DaveC426913]

The boat should be extremely heeled over before the rudder loses its bite and you round up. If you’re rounding up before you’re uncomfortably heeled, you may have a mast rake issue.

Oh yeah. It doesn't round up before it hits 25 degrees or more*. I practice at holding it there (because I know it's still stable), but sometimes full rudder won't do it. I end up doing what I call "scalloping" - repeated cycles of speed ups and round ups.

* guess it depends on one's definition of "uncomfortably" heeled. In stable winds, I'm happy to hold it at 30 or more. But we have a few (known) places where there are some serious gusts and stability is unpredictable. Pretty sure I hit 45 once, but not for long.

The motor disconnect kit has a stationary point to connect the motor in the straight ahead position. You can simply drop the tilt, fire up the motor, and steer with the rudders if you get in a jamb. I only need directional thrust in tight spots during docking or launching.

Yeah, I guess that's true.

[Be Free]

If you are heeling 25 degrees in 10 knots there is something wrong somewhere. Just for the sake of thoroughness:

• Are you sure that your ballast tank is full? When the boat is sitting level can you touch the water through the vent in the v-berth?
• I know that you are using the descriptions in the Beaufort Scale to estimate the wind speed. The scale does mention "scattered whitecaps" around 10 knots but it also describes that as a "gentle breeze". Are you seeing any spray? That would put you closer to 20 knots which would line up better with your heel angle.
• Check your mast rake (as has already been mentioned).

At 20 knots you will be heeling around 20-25 degrees and will have to "scallop" to keep the boat from rounding up. That is perfectly normal. The fix for that is to reef your main. The boat will do better if you can keep the heel under 15 degrees or so. After that you are just increasing the wetted surface and going slower. If you want to do it for the fun have at it, but it's not efficient.

If you have an adjustable backstay, loosen it before attaching the forestay. The tension you are working against when you are attaching the forestay should all be coming from mast and the shrouds. The back stay only comes under tension when you are running downwind. If you have trouble attaching the forestay while the backstay is loose you either have your shrouds (side stays) too tight or your forestay is adjusted too short.

[DaveC426913]

If you are heeling 25 degrees in 10 knots there is something wrong somewhere.

This is on a close haul.

I should probably get better at estimating wind speed.

• Are you sure that your ballast tank is full? When the boat is sitting level can you touch the water through the vent in the v-berth?

I always have it full, but I confess I don't check it. I suppose it's possible it's low.

[*]I know that you are using the descriptions in the Beaufort Scale to estimate the wind speed. The scale does mention "scattered whitecaps" around 10 knots but it also describes that as a "gentle breeze". Are you seeing any spray

Lord no. Nowhere near spray.

[*]Check your mast rake (as has already been mentioned).
[/list]

Will post imminently.

At 20 knots you will be heeling around 20-25 degrees and will have to "scallop" to keep the boat from rounding up. That is perfectly normal. The fix for that is to reef your main.

Yes. I would reef in anything over 11 knots.
Over 15 knots, sails would be useless.

The boat will do better if you can keep the heel under 15 degrees or so. After that you are just increasing the wetted surface and going slower. If you want to do it for the fun have at it, but it's not efficient.

Yeah, I do it for fun. Today, when I was out, I was able to hold it at about 20 degrees, and hit 6 knots boat speed.

If you have an adjustable backstay, loosen it before attaching the forestay. The tension you are working against when you are attaching the forestay should all be coming from mast and the shrouds. The back stay only comes under tension when you are running downwind. If you have trouble attaching the forestay while the backstay is loose you either have your shrouds (side stays) too tight or your forestay is adjusted too short.

No. I do not attach backstay until all other rigging is up. It's merely an afterthought.

[DaveC426913]

Pic of my rake.
Horizontal is based on horizon. Pretty sure my boat is balanced pitchwise. Waterline is straight.
I don't think there's significant distortion in this pic.

[Jimmyt]

I would still like to hear your impressions of the helm without the outboard flopping around on it, however, that looks like too much rake to me. I don't have an X, but Tomfoolery does; and he stated that he had dialed out most of his mast rake - because the boat rounded up too easily.

Out of curiosity, where do you fall compared to the manual?

[DaveC426913]

I would still like to hear your impressions of the helm without the outboard flopping around on it,

I checked that out today. I feel a bit silly.

Even while the wheel wanted to pull to lee (because of the engine weight), it did in fact have a bit of weather helm on the wheel (rudders set so as to turn to-weather).

I've been mistaking the former for the latter!

Out of curiosity, where do you fall compared to the manual?

Mine is 4 degrees from vertical.

The manual says 94 degrees from the mast foot. I'll have to check out that angle.

Hm. But if the mast foot turned out not to be horizontal, it will certainly be tilted astern.
Which would mean my mast is to too vertical (more near 90 from the mast foot), and I would have to rake it more to get it to 94 degrees from the foot.

[Dougiestyle]

When figuring mast rake. What we have is a 28ft mast and when 4 degrees is applied at the bottom the top will be 1.95437ft back from straight up. one degree = 0.48869ft (Acute Isosceles Triangle)
I think roger knew that it would readily round up (consider beginners) when you do the wrong things. Too much wind for a given situation.

When I got my . I had no idea what i was doing still don't STILL LEARNING always. I had my first round up the first time out , after searching this site and the manual I made a larger cardboard copy of the sketch in the manual. What I learned was my rake as about 6 degrees which is 2.93ft back from straight up which is where the PO had it. That's . Becomes difficult to sail without round ups.

Some people say to check it by referencing from the waterline. I just used the manual sketch blown up on a copy machine.

Another thing to consider is the jib/jenoa for balancing the boat.
Then figure in the centerboard position for close reach, broad reach and on downwind your centerboard should be all the way up
Now tie them all together and go have some fun .

[wakataka]

With the boat in the water, hang a heavy weight (I used a large crescent wrench) from the main halyard and measure how far behind the mast it touches the deck. Mine was originally 24" aft of the mast and I found that to be too much rake. I shortened the fore stay and got it to hang 16" aft of the mast, which seems about right for my boat. It will still round up, but only after the boat is heeled over to the point the rudders are losing grip. My mast rake is about 3 degrees as measured from the deck in front of the mast. This did make a big difference in the sailing qualities. I can drive the boat a lot harder to windward now and the helm is nicely balanced. In moderate and fairly steady breeze, it will sail nicely all by itself when going to windward.

[Be Free]

Dave,
If you are seeing scattered whitecaps and no significant spray then you are probably pretty close on your estimates. I think you may be underestimating a bit based on your measured boat speeds, but you are not grossly underestimating the wind speed.

You should always check the water level in the ballast tank before sailing. Low ballast is almost as dangerous as no ballast. You don't want the water in the tank to be sloshing side to side.

The only published reference we have for the proper mast rake is based on the mast to deck angle. That is where you need to measure it. The 4 degree suggestion is about as far back as you would ever want it to be.

Based on your description of the way the boat handles I would suspect that the forestay is too long. This would give you additional rake and make the boat round up easier.

However, you have said that you struggle to attach the forestay when you are raising the mast. That would make me suspect that the forestay is too short. I really dislike contradictory evidence.

Forgive me if you've already mentioned this, but how much jib do you have out when you are rounding up?

The first order of business is to find out why you are heeling so much and rounding up in light wind. They are probably related.

Once everything is set up correctly you should be able to sail your "X" comfortably up to around 20 knots of wind. You will put in your first reef somewhere between 10 and 15 knots. The second reef goes in closer to 20 knots. If the main is reefed appropriately you should be able to keep the boat close to 15 degrees of heel without rounding up in those conditions. A few months ago I sailed around six hours in small craft advisory conditions (20-33 knots, 4 foot waves) coming home from a multi-day trip. The only thing that was difficult was striking the main when I got back to the channel.

[DaveC426913]

Gotta say, I rally appreciate you sticking with me through this. Gonna be a whole new experience when I get it sorted.

You should always check the water level in the ballast tank before sailing. Low ballast is almost as dangerous as no ballast. You don't want the water in the tank to be sloshing side to side.

I will check.

Based on your description of the way the boat handles I would suspect that the forestay is too long. This would give you additional rake and make the boat round up easier.

However, you have said that you struggle to attach the forestay when you are raising the mast. That would make me suspect that the forestay is too short. I really dislike contradictory evidence.

Yeah. Another factor in attaching the forestay is the weight of the genny. It's almost impossible to get that last bit of sag out.

Forgive me if you've already mentioned this, but how much jib do you have out when you are rounding up?

Always 150%. I only fly less than 150% when winds are over 15 knots.

Once everything is set up correctly you should be able to sail your "X" comfortably up to around 20 knots of wind. You will put in your first reef somewhere between 10 and 15 knots. The second reef goes in closer to 20 knots.

Only one reef. That's all I really need. Tames the boat dramatically, but also makes for efficient (albeit slow and dull) sail. If I were in a sitch where I needed a 2nd reef, I'd drop it completely.

A few months ago I sailed around six hours in small craft advisory conditions (20-33 knots, 4 foot waves) coming home from a multi-day trip.

Never more than 2 foot waves here on L. Ontario. (Well, not when I've been out. My friends on their grown-up boats have found themselves in 10 foot rollers.)

The only thing that was difficult was striking the main when I got back to the channel.

A main sail downhaul - run aft to bucket - is a wonderful thing.

[Be Free]

Gotta say, I rally appreciate you sticking with me through this. Gonna be a whole new experience when I get it sorted.

Forgive me if you've already mentioned this, but how much jib do you have out when you are rounding up?

Always 150%. I only fly less than 150% when winds are over 15 knots.

Once everything is set up correctly you should be able to sail your "X" comfortably up to around 20 knots of wind. You will put in your first reef somewhere between 10 and 15 knots. The second reef goes in closer to 20 knots.

Only one reef. That's all I really need. Tames the boat dramatically, but also makes for efficient (albeit slow and dull) sail. If I were in a sitch where I needed a 2nd reef, I'd drop it completely.

A few months ago I sailed around six hours in small craft advisory conditions (20-33 knots, 4 foot waves) coming home from a multi-day trip.

Never more than 2 foot waves here on L. Ontario. (Well, not when I've been out. My friends on their grown-up boats have found themselves in 10 foot rollers.)

The only thing that was difficult was striking the main when I got back to the channel.

A main sail downhaul - run aft to bucket - is a wonderful thing.

I'm glad to hear that you always have the jib up. One of my concerns was that you were only using the main. That would aggravate the rounding up but not the heeling. I was pretty sure you were using the jib. The 150 will not point as well as a jib but it will make a noticeable difference off the wind. Since I think you may be slightly underestimating the wind speed you might try shortening the foresail a little sooner and see what happens.

How far from the bottom of the main is the reef point? Does it have battens? Is it loose footed or does it have slugs connecting it to the boom? Is the top triangular or squared off? Are you using an outhaul to tension the foot of the main?

A downhaul for the main was already on the list as the next mod as soon as I finish with the electrical upgrades. That was a good suggestion and very insightful to deduce I did not have one when I mentioned having difficulty striking the main in a high wind. All other lines are already led to the cockpit, including a downhaul for the jib.

[Jimmyt]

But if the mast foot turned out not to be horizontal, it will certainly be tilted astern.
Which would mean my mast is to too vertical (more near 90 from the mast foot), and I would have to rake it more to get it to 94 degrees from the foot.

Don't know that this is a valid assumption. Cabin top could be leaning forward just as easily. And since Tomfoolery reported easy roundup based on the stock setting, I'm thinking you're probably in that neighborhood. Looks like wakataka Came to the same conclusion.