Hello all. Just thought I would bounce my predicament off the group.
My neighbor and I (both with 26Xs) just confirmed that our 26X masts would not clear the Bakers Haulover Cut fixed bridge leading from the SE Florida intracoastal to the open ocean. At highest tide, the mast is too tall by one foot in the center of the span. We had both cleared the bridge at lower tides, but never confirmed at high tide until today.
He approached the span very slowly while I watched from land nearby to note clearance and to photograph it. It could only be done this way as it is impossible to judge how much clearance when sitting in the boat. As the mast tapped the bridge, he just reversed the boat and got out safely.
This bridge is the only gateway to sea from the intracoastal between Port Everglades (13 mi north) in Ft Lauderdale and Government Cut (13 mi south) in Miami. A lot of water pours in and out of the intracoastal through here. There are no fixed bridges between here and Miami and Ft Lauderdale, so I can get out there. But this bridge is convenient because it is only about a mile from our 26X docks behind our condos.
Now, I know we can lower the mast. However, the problem is that on the ocean side of the bridge, it is ALWAYS extremely agitated water due to the huge tidal current of water going in and out of the intracoastal and ocean waves. There is absolutely no shelter on the ocean side where it could be comfortable to lower the mast or resecure the forestay easily. And the boat is subject to a LOT of pitching going through the cut, so the angled mast would have to be secured very well.
So, I, and my neighbor, are both thinking about cutting the mast by 1.5 to 2 ft to make sure we can always get through the fixed bridge to outrun any storm or rough seas to return home, or into the intracoastal.
This would mean altering the sail, or buying a new sail to fit the new mast dimensions. For me, that is not a big deal as my main sail seems quite baggy and old enough to be on its last legs anyway.
If I reduce the mast, I would lose about 10% of the main sail area. I have a nice, almost new 150 genoa from the PO, so that helps.
Any suggestions anyone?
And if I get a new sail, any suggestions on getting a smaller one that would improve performance?
Cutting my 26x Mast by 2 feet?
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Frank C
I wouldn't hesitate to reduce the mast height if I was sure it would solve my problem. But around here, max tides can vary by more than the one-foot clearance you're targeting across a time span less than one week. I'd never be comfortable speeding under that bridge. Besides, I'd guess that a shorter mast would put a serious dent in resale value.
I'd rather improve the mast raising equipment and procedures. Eric Hardtle's winch on the gin-pole, plus a quick lever at the forestay like Catigale's ... seems much easier, quicker and cheaper solution.
I'd rather improve the mast raising equipment and procedures. Eric Hardtle's winch on the gin-pole, plus a quick lever at the forestay like Catigale's ... seems much easier, quicker and cheaper solution.
The tides here in SE FL are normally only about two feet.
It would be extremely rare for the tide to be higher at the bridge ie from unusual storm surge. Under those conditions, which are normally known in advance from marine forecasts, I probably wouldn't even be out on the ocean side.
re the mast raising
I already installed the heavy duty quick release forestay unit from WM. Anyone who has a 150 genoa, probably has noticed that it is a real pain to re-connect the roller furling forestay. The genoa is probably 50% heavier than the jib, thus 50% harder to connect.
I also have the mast raising kit (without the winch on the pole). I have no problem raising or lowering the mast single handed. That is not where the problem is.
The problem with lowering the mast is the side to side pitching on the ocean side, as well as side to side pitching going through the inlet.
What I am looking at also is tying a line on each side of the main shrouds where they attach to the mast. I would then run each line through my genoa blocks on each side and jam cleat in place tightly to prevent the mast from pitching side to side when I have it lowered enough. Then I have to consider the loading on the mast attachment point on the deck, whether it will stress it too much.
If I can find a simple easy way to really secure the mast as it is tilted, that could solve the problem.
It would be extremely rare for the tide to be higher at the bridge ie from unusual storm surge. Under those conditions, which are normally known in advance from marine forecasts, I probably wouldn't even be out on the ocean side.
re the mast raising
I already installed the heavy duty quick release forestay unit from WM. Anyone who has a 150 genoa, probably has noticed that it is a real pain to re-connect the roller furling forestay. The genoa is probably 50% heavier than the jib, thus 50% harder to connect.
I also have the mast raising kit (without the winch on the pole). I have no problem raising or lowering the mast single handed. That is not where the problem is.
The problem with lowering the mast is the side to side pitching on the ocean side, as well as side to side pitching going through the inlet.
What I am looking at also is tying a line on each side of the main shrouds where they attach to the mast. I would then run each line through my genoa blocks on each side and jam cleat in place tightly to prevent the mast from pitching side to side when I have it lowered enough. Then I have to consider the loading on the mast attachment point on the deck, whether it will stress it too much.
If I can find a simple easy way to really secure the mast as it is tilted, that could solve the problem.
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Duane Dunn, Allegro
- Admiral
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The baby stays that are part of the mast raising kit can be set up to limit side to side motion when the mast is tilted back. I don't keep mine as tight as they could be and they still don't allow much side to side play when raising and lowering.
With the mast raising kit in place and the baby stays, dipping the mast a foot or so is not much trouble.
Even so I wouldn't worry much about shortening the mast. Cutting it off and re installing the backstay should be simple. None of the rest of the rigging is affected. You'd have to lower the mainsheet block. You could have a new foot sew into the sail and it would probably help the boats performance to have less of a belly in the sail. It's really no different than sailing with a small reef in the sail. You might even get away with adding a simple reef at the right place and always only hoisting to that point.
In all but the lightest conditions I doubt you will miss that small amount of sail. The boat sails best on it's feet and you always go faster if you reef early rather than letting the heel build. If it solves your problem I would do it.
With the mast raising kit in place and the baby stays, dipping the mast a foot or so is not much trouble.
Even so I wouldn't worry much about shortening the mast. Cutting it off and re installing the backstay should be simple. None of the rest of the rigging is affected. You'd have to lower the mainsheet block. You could have a new foot sew into the sail and it would probably help the boats performance to have less of a belly in the sail. It's really no different than sailing with a small reef in the sail. You might even get away with adding a simple reef at the right place and always only hoisting to that point.
In all but the lightest conditions I doubt you will miss that small amount of sail. The boat sails best on it's feet and you always go faster if you reef early rather than letting the heel build. If it solves your problem I would do it.
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juergen X2524
- Just Enlisted
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- Location: Berlin/Germany
- Contact:
cutting the mast
i would not cut the mast, but install a mast-lowering/-raising-equipment,
which can be fully operated from the cockpit.
-have a look at the pictures of my installation-
"macgregor26-lug.dyndns.org/bilder/juett/"
if you need more info, dont hesitate to "pm".
regards juergen
which can be fully operated from the cockpit.
-have a look at the pictures of my installation-
"macgregor26-lug.dyndns.org/bilder/juett/"
if you need more info, dont hesitate to "pm".
regards juergen
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Rich Smith
- Engineer
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Tony D-26X_SusieQ
- First Officer
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 7:20 am
- Location: Mayo, Maryland
Maybe you could come up with re-engineering the top half of the mast so that you could telescope it down to clear the bridge then crank it back up after you clear. You might also try converting to a gaf rig system such as they use in europe. Both are major mods but so is cutting off the top of the mast. 
You might also try converting to a gaf rig system such as they use in europe. Both are major mods but so is cutting off the top of the mast. Duane, thanks for the advice. But it's common for the seas to get to 3 to 4 feet on the ocean side of the bridge. With that I am concerned about the baby stays holding firmly enough.
Juergen,
That is a very clever solution for someone who has to raise and lower the mast a lot! How firmly would your solution hold the mast at an angle with 1 meter to 1.5 meter seas tossing the boat?
Do you sail mainly in the lakes around Berlin, or up into the North Sea? Berlin is a beautiful city. I visited it two years ago and went on a nice little dinner party cruise around the city. (It was part of a business convention I attended.)
I am studying your solution.
Best regards,
Miami
Juergen,
That is a very clever solution for someone who has to raise and lower the mast a lot! How firmly would your solution hold the mast at an angle with 1 meter to 1.5 meter seas tossing the boat?
Do you sail mainly in the lakes around Berlin, or up into the North Sea? Berlin is a beautiful city. I visited it two years ago and went on a nice little dinner party cruise around the city. (It was part of a business convention I attended.)
I am studying your solution.
Best regards,
Miami
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Frank C
Surv's comment (about 20 degrees aft) reminded me of a freeware CAD program called JustCAD. So I just "wasted" about 2 hours figuring out how it works. The software is very basic, using a VERY old-fashioned interface. But once you scan enough of the help file (also very meager), it'll permit drawing a diagram with some known dimensions and then measuring other distances and angles electronically.
For example, I drew the mast by asking for a vertical line of 28 feet (336 inches) bingo! Cloned that line to depict the spar, then drew the declination arc. Next started measuring break points at different heights and intersecting the arc. Then I drew in the declining mast. Since I only used the aft edge of the mast for angles, I should add about 4 inches of mast thickness to each height.
So now I know that 26 degrees saves about 3 feet of mast height, or that 45 degrees saves just more than 8 feet. But, one would need GUESS that point at which the mast is "N" degrees aft.
I figured that I'd need a physical marker so I imagined I could attach a plumb bob at the 6' mark on the erect mast. If my plumb is 5'5" long, it would just touch the base of the triangle (the level of the mast step) when the mast was at 26+ degrees aft. The software permits drawing the sticks and measuring them electronically. (Obviously, in the real world I'd need to determine an adjusted length that allows for the height difference from mast step to sliding hatch).
Sorry, I guess I could have saved it in a little larger diagram. Maybe tonight.
Anyone w/ sine tables or protractor, or slide rule, or an HP calculator feel like checking it out???
ETA: Added some measurements of key points along the mast.
Click image to enlarge . . .
For example, I drew the mast by asking for a vertical line of 28 feet (336 inches) bingo! Cloned that line to depict the spar, then drew the declination arc. Next started measuring break points at different heights and intersecting the arc. Then I drew in the declining mast. Since I only used the aft edge of the mast for angles, I should add about 4 inches of mast thickness to each height.
So now I know that 26 degrees saves about 3 feet of mast height, or that 45 degrees saves just more than 8 feet. But, one would need GUESS that point at which the mast is "N" degrees aft.
I figured that I'd need a physical marker so I imagined I could attach a plumb bob at the 6' mark on the erect mast. If my plumb is 5'5" long, it would just touch the base of the triangle (the level of the mast step) when the mast was at 26+ degrees aft. The software permits drawing the sticks and measuring them electronically. (Obviously, in the real world I'd need to determine an adjusted length that allows for the height difference from mast step to sliding hatch).
Sorry, I guess I could have saved it in a little larger diagram. Maybe tonight.
Anyone w/ sine tables or protractor, or slide rule, or an HP calculator feel like checking it out???
ETA: Added some measurements of key points along the mast.
Click image to enlarge . . .
Last edited by Frank C on Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:55 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Catigale
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- Location: Admiral .............Catigale 2002X.......Lots of Harpoon Hobie 16 Skiffs....Island 17
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Miami - I guess I would be a little spooked considering purchasing a mac with a short mast - for one thing, am I going to be able to get sails without going custom?
You could estimate the maximum hit you could take for this as
Cost of New standard mast +DELIVERY to you to figure out what it would cost you to put it back to standard specs. Save your old mainsails.
Have you thought of adding a two foot reef to you standard main to see how it would sail? That might keep you from having to buy a new sail.
I think I would go with the mast tipping solution of some kind.
You could estimate the maximum hit you could take for this as
Cost of New standard mast +DELIVERY to you to figure out what it would cost you to put it back to standard specs. Save your old mainsails.
Have you thought of adding a two foot reef to you standard main to see how it would sail? That might keep you from having to buy a new sail.
I think I would go with the mast tipping solution of some kind.
Frank, you don't need all those things to calculate the plumb bob length from desired mast height or vice versa. They're proporitional. For example, if you want a 21' mast height:
21'/28' = .75 or 75% and 75% of 6' = 4.5' plumb bob
or if the plumb bob length is 5'
5'/6' = .8333 or 83.33% and 83.33% of 28' = 23.33' mast height
21'/28' = .75 or 75% and 75% of 6' = 4.5' plumb bob
or if the plumb bob length is 5'
5'/6' = .8333 or 83.33% and 83.33% of 28' = 23.33' mast height
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Frank C
C'mon Moe,
Careful or you'll spoil my fun!
Yeah, that makes sense. I actually meant to go test that on a calulator, but all that CAD fussin' was more interesting. Anyway, I also added some other mast dimensions from my notes ... might prove useful some day.
As a point of interest, I measured my mast a few weeks back at 333 inches. Since I doubt that it actually shrank by those 3 inches, suppose I might have messed up somewhere while stretching to reach the masthead. (Yes, mast was down in the crutch!)
Careful or you'll spoil my fun!
Yeah, that makes sense. I actually meant to go test that on a calulator, but all that CAD fussin' was more interesting. Anyway, I also added some other mast dimensions from my notes ... might prove useful some day.
As a point of interest, I measured my mast a few weeks back at 333 inches. Since I doubt that it actually shrank by those 3 inches, suppose I might have messed up somewhere while stretching to reach the masthead. (Yes, mast was down in the crutch!)
Lots of good ideas from everyone here!
I'm leaning towards cutting the mast. It's just simpler for me. I just want to avoid the probability of raising and lowering the mast in severely pitching seas to negotiate that bridge.
Also, looking back at previous posts about the 26X mainsail, I learned that my main is probably "baggy" not from overuse or overweathering by the 2 POs, but most likely from the bolt ropes shrinking!
So, I am going to bring the main to a sail loft locally (luckily there are many to choose from around here), and see about removing some of the bottom to accommodate the shorter mast. At the same time, maybe I can have them do something about the shrunken bolt ropes to restore the sail to some reasonable tautness.
I plan on keeping the boat for a long time, so re-sale is not a big deal with the altered mast.
I also want to eventually build some sort of boom furler reefing system. It doesn't look that hard to do. Then go with a fully battened large roach sail as suggested earlier that can be easily furled onto a rotating boom. That would be ideal for convenience!
I'm leaning towards cutting the mast. It's just simpler for me. I just want to avoid the probability of raising and lowering the mast in severely pitching seas to negotiate that bridge.
Also, looking back at previous posts about the 26X mainsail, I learned that my main is probably "baggy" not from overuse or overweathering by the 2 POs, but most likely from the bolt ropes shrinking!
So, I am going to bring the main to a sail loft locally (luckily there are many to choose from around here), and see about removing some of the bottom to accommodate the shorter mast. At the same time, maybe I can have them do something about the shrunken bolt ropes to restore the sail to some reasonable tautness.
I plan on keeping the boat for a long time, so re-sale is not a big deal with the altered mast.
I also want to eventually build some sort of boom furler reefing system. It doesn't look that hard to do. Then go with a fully battened large roach sail as suggested earlier that can be easily furled onto a rotating boom. That would be ideal for convenience!