Freezer/Refrigerator

[Gerald Gordon]

Does anyone have information regarding this Waeco drawer frig? I could get one at West Marine for about $620.00, but I've seen them for $488.00 plus shipping.
These refers have been review favorably. Any comments?

http://www.waeco.co.za/product.jsp?id=12

[Chip Hindes]

Looks like a nice unit, but 40W power consumption (4-5 amps) will pull your 80 A-h house battery down to dead in less than 10 hours. If you're planning to run the motor to recharge the batteries, round numbers, you'll have to run it at max alternator output for an hour for each three hours you run the refrigerator. You planning to run your motor for eight hours for each 24 hour day?

True refrigeration is not really practical in a boat the size of the Mac.

[Gerald Gordon]

Chip wrote:

True refrigeration is not really practical in a boat the size of the Mac.

I'm not sure what you mean by True refrigeration! I've read about Engle compressor units which seem to do a very good job at freezing and refrigeration with a max of 3.5 amps power use. Anyway, there is no reason not to have a refrigerator on board and many units are available. Beats ice.

[Chip Hindes]

I'm not sure what you mean by True refrigeration! I've read about Engle compressor units which seem to do a very good job at freezing and refrigeration with a max of 3.5 amps power use.

What I mean is just what you said.

Unless you can plug into shore power every day, or you intend to run your motor for most of the daylight hours, 3.5 A is still far too high a power draw for a sailboat with a 50HP outboard and 11-15A alternator. For 24 hours of refrigeration, you'll have to run your motor for eight hours. Just for refrigeration, not including all the other power consuming appliances, lights, radios, autopilots, etcetera. It's not a viable concept.

You can get the same from one 10 pound bag of ice, per day. And the $5-700 you'll spend for one of these high efficiency refrigerators will keep you in ice for ten or fifteen years. Probably longer than the refrigerator will last.

[mike]

Actually, the Engel unit draws 3.5 only when it's running, not constantly... with the cycling on/off, it draws an average of about 1.5. That said, you still need a fairly large battery bank to give yourself more than a day or two away from shore power, and/or a better way to charge the batteries.

We've been on two trips since getting our fridge. On the first, we didn't anchor out for more than 1 night at a time, and we were fine on power. For the second, we spent more time away from shore power, but had a generator to power the microwave, and I'd just let it run for an hour or so in the evening to keep the batteries full enough.

Yes, ice is more practical, but I hate dealing with ice.

--Mike

[Tom Spohn]

BWY has a 26 liter Indel B with Danfoss for $399. Secret is to get these units cooled down while still at the dock using shore power. Once cool they use very little power.

[deacm]

I've used the WAECO CF-50 in my boat all summer long and couldn't be more pleased. I have an AGM house battery and the frig doesn't seem to impact my voltage for at least 48 hours. I once accidentally left my boat at the dock, forgetting to switch on shore power. Came back 2 days later and not only was everything still cold, but my battery was still at just under 12 volts on the volt meter. As someone else mentioned, it is a good idea to get the 'intial cool down' from shore power before you turn it over to the battery. I only keep the thing set at about half way on the thermostat and even THAT is almost too cold. Remember, with the WAECO, you can turn the whole thing into a FREEZER if you want to at it's highest setting. What is also nice is that the DC/AC operational switchover is automatic. As soon as you turn off shore power, 12V kicks in............and vice versa. I kept it turned on the WHOLE summer and it puts out very little heat......which I would have easily felt otherwise when you first open up your boat on a hot day. It was a godsend on my 500 mile Erie Canal/Lake Champlain trip.

[DLT]

I have a Danfoss compressor fridge on my boat too. Like anything other than ice, it does use power. But, as has been mentioned, only when the compressor is actually running.

Another thing I've found to be helpful, on those hot days, is to leave a fan running in the cabin, blowing air accross the top of the fridge, as it does get hot. This, isn't needed if you are moving and can get air moving through the cabin that way. But, when you're sitting at anchor just swimming or whatever, that fan keeps the fridge and the rest of the cabin tolerable, even on those 175 deg Kansas afternoons (thanks Randy, I loved that...)

[craiglaforce]

Neat fridge ideas.

For recharging the batts, I would just get a little generator, hook it up to a 30 amp smartcharger and and run it for an hour a day.
If I was cruising, there is absolutely no way I would not have little generator on board anyway. The little generator I bought at bargain jims was very cheap, quiet, and runs for a long time on a gallon of gas. Downsides are It takes a few pulls to get it going, is a 2 stroke that needs premix, and the speed is not rock solid, like the new hi tech generators, but for dumping amp hours into a battery, more than adequate.

if there is a built in holding plate for the fridge, so much the better.

[Randy Smith]

I thought about a fridge....for the money I think I will stick with Ice .....I get almost three days in my coolers.....I have been able to find ice up and down the river.....If I buy a fridge, I need a generator.....a generator means more fuel, more fuel needs more space.........one thing leads to another.
Recently, I had a long talk with myself. I bought the Mac because of its simple nature. I have added some comforts, but it is not a Carver, Nordhaven...not even a stinkin Bayliner and it won't be. It is my get away for a few days and I don't need (talked to myself in depth ya see) all the worldly pleasures. Me, the admiral, the dog, a cooler of goods, the TV(easy on the batts) for movies and selected games, simple stove, good coffee, and we are good. I am going to work hard to keep my Mac simple. I could get carried away and have, but now I am reevaluating the use of the boat.
Ya'll with extra money and great imaginations, keep showing those modifications and Heck some of them I will try.......Chip is right, ice is manageable. (it has taken me since 96 to fully develop this philosophy)
Do any of you agree with me or am I "out there"?
By the way, the drawer fridge is great, but it expensive as well as very small. Randy

[argonaut]

Jerry Cardwell expressed an appreciation for simple boat systems in his book "Sailing Big on a Small Boat". You don't need much if you don't get used to having it. Yeah I've thought about energy hogs like a/c and electric fridges but not having them, I still have loads of fun and heck, I'm an engineer, I don't mind making something complicated somebody else has to fix. But on my boat doing more with less is elegance.
An example. Bought two 10 pound bags of ice for my 5 day cooler over a month ago. Sailed for a weekend, put the leftover ice back in the freezer. Sailed the next weekend, reused the ice again as very little had melted. 20 pounds was now about 12. Then the hurricane came and the power went out.
After the 'cane, as the din of all of my neighbors cranking up their generators rose, I switched to using our boat/hurricane (non perishable) food and the boat's handy little butane stove. Even had a hot shower with leftover hot water the day after. Eventually moved the freezer food and cold stuff to the five day boat cooler. Next day the power came back on, I never started the tiny 1.8KW generator I have. Only thing i'd like is an ice machine in my garage, but at $1.25 for 10 pounds it's no big deal and a good cooler makes it go a long way. Done right, as in Moe's frozen milk jug method, you even get a supply of cold water over your week.
Consider every thing as having some degree of complexity. When it breaks, everything will, how are you affected.
My cooler goes out (it could happen I guess), I spend about 25 minutes picking up another and I'm sailing again. Now my exotic compressor croaks and the admiral stops all sailing until a refrigeration tech puts it right and I sign a big check. When I get rich I'll try that, those folks have to eat too. Till then I'd rather sail than keep things I don't really need running.
As usual, your mileage may vary.

[Moe]

We followed the minimalist approach as well, and tried to use the boat as Roger designed it. It worked pretty well for up to 5 days "at sea" for us.

I can't take credit for the frozen milk jug idea. That came from Don T and others. It really helped the ice last for five days. But on longer cruises, targeting every 3rd day resupply, with inexpensive and readily available ice cubes, is probably more practical. The Duane Dunn Ice Cube drink cooler and his method of using the manual bilge pump to move melted ice to the sink works well. So does the Chip Hindes philosophy of bringing less refrigerated food.

Three days is also probably a practical limit for the 2.8 gallon Sani-Pottie, without using a jug urinal to extend it. Having a place to dump every 3rd day would be handy, if not offshore. Barb was going to sew a canvas tote bag large enough to conceal the potty bottom I could use to take it to a marina restroom.

The 5 gallon jug under the galley lasted us much longer than 3 days, but we were very miserly with it. Refilling every 3rd day would allow a little more casual use. That for the head was used even less. However, it would also be good to have a 5 gallon spare, especially in case water at a particular stop didn't taste or smell good.

The Origo alcohol stove worked great for coffee and cooking, and we didn't come near using one filling. With a spare quart, this wouldn't be a resupply concern for me, especially since it can be found at any hardware store and some marinas.

The other thing that would be nice would be a long, hot shower every third night at a marina. There are those here who've solved the hot shower problem aboard with various methods.

The other resupply item is gas for the outboard, but we found ourselves only using 2-4 gallons per 5 days, sailing as much as we did.

What I was really pleased with was the electrical use. The largest draw was the 10W anchor light run 10 hours/night for 8AH, something you wouldn't have every 3rd night, if staying in a marina. The factory cabin lighting is very bright and power-hungry, but we found we seldom needed more than one of them on at a time. In fact, we only used them for about 1/2 hour for washing dishes and cleaning up, and preferred a much less bright battery-powered light on the table for evening mood lighting. And we used a small battery-powered light in the head to make up for Roger's omission of this in the 26X. We only used the GPS/Sounder occasionally during the day, but did run it all night in the cabin with the anchor drag alarm on during high winds. We also charged the handheld VHF off the batteries at night, and used it only occasionally during the day. Our iPod and computer speakers ran for about 4 hours/day using about 4AH. Even though Barb would like one, I go out on the boat to get away from television, so we didn't have that. In all, our electrical use added up to about 18-20 AH per day.

The problem with even an Engel refrigerator is that it would increase our electrical use to 200-300% of what we used, depending on ambient temperature. Although our Suzuki has an 18 amp capacity alternator, in retrospect, with only one Group 24 house battery, it was probably only charging at about 8 amps with its 13.8-14.0 volt output. Even though the capacity of the alternator or charger may be higher, the amount of charging that takes place depends on the charging voltage, and the capacity and state of charge of the batteries. You don't want to charge flooded cell batteries at a rate greater than capacity/10 anyway, or you risk warping the plates from overheating. Had we had two batteries paralled, the Duane Dunn recommendation, we probably would've been charging at twice the rate we did. Those with 10-12A alternators probably wouldn't fare any worse than we did with a single house battery, but would take much longer than those with 18-25A alternators and two paralled batteries.

The other problem that I have with refrigerators is the heat they generate in the cabin, or in the bilge if built-in to the dinette seat. While this might be welcome in the colder climates, I wouldn't want it, even with the 24x7 Nicro vent we had, with summer temperatures.

The bottomline is that I feel a 12 volt refrigerator like the Engel is fine for daysailing or an occasional overnight from a slip or trailer parking with 120VAC for charging. I also feel it's okay for longer use, if you power the number of hours per day required to keep up with its use with your alternator and battery setup, or you bring a small generator aboard. We don't, trying to sail as much as possible instead, and we don't want the hassle of bringing one of our Honda EU2000s. That's my opinion and YMMV.

I guess my final note would be that if you go that route, stick with a chest type. They are much more efficient than a drawer-type or front door type.

[Gerald Gordon]

Very interesting!!!!!!!!

Captains with refrigerating units indicate its ok.
Captains without refrigerating units seem to sugguest having a refer is a bad idea!!!

I have several alternate means of generating power.
I have an AirX Marine wind turbine installed and I also have a Honda 2000 generator.

[Jeff Ritsema]

Why not have both? I have enjoyed the use of the Weaco refrigerator for "non-beverage" items and a separate 5-day cooler for the beverages on ice. We prefer our beverages COLD, something a refrigerator cannot provide and also enjoy the benefits of the refrigerator for those days we have accessible 120VAC, at least intermittantly. We open the refrigerator infrequently in a day's time, an energy saver, while it seems we're constantly opening the "cooler". (thirsty bunch). Our refrigerator is "out of the way", under the galley, and even has the small frezzer which nicely freezes meats.
However, when I know we'll be out "on the hook" for a few days, I retreat to my former "camping" mode and use the cooler only, in fact, 2 coolers, one for beverages and one for all else, not using the refrigerator. I did add the Honda 1000 generator to the list of my "options" recently, but more as a backup to house batteries as needed "without" the use of the refrigerator when cruising for long periods away from AC.
So, my method is: refrigerator + cooler when coastal cruising and AC accessible, or, cooler+cooler only when away from AC for a longer period of time.
Also, since we trailer slip our boat and do frequent day sails, we seldom use the refrigerator or the "big cooler" on those days, instead using a small carry-on cooler for the day. The larger coolers and the refrigerator enter the picture when more than one day is on tap: 1-2 week cruises in the summer. We enjoy the freedom of these options.
I think Moe's point is important to keep in mind, that it is important to be aware of the state of battery charge (by meters such as the Link 10 or 20), and to do a power "audit" to get some idea of the demand on the house and start batteries we have so we don't get caught with either no starting power or that we're damaging the batteries by excess draw.
Jeff

[Tom Spohn]

We spent three weeks in the San Juans and Gulf Islands this year. Our Indel B was on 24/7. We anchored about 1/2 the time and I think about three days was the max between shore power. This unit never faltered and kept the beer, meat, cheese, milk, etc. just the right temperatire while cracked on about 1/4 of the dial. With the dial at 3/4 it is a freezer and is too much for what we use it for. Once cool these Danfoss units really keep things cool with very little power and no messing with melting ice, etc. We love ours.