In an ongoing pursuit to add ballast, prompted by my second damaged dagger board, I have done more research on the weighted keel issue. The first step was to explore adding some foam insulation on the interior of the trunk, since by DB has 2 inch chunks of fiberglass wedged out of it by banging around in the trunk, which seems to be much too large of a chamber for the DB. I would then get the board filled with about 150lbs of lead shot. After talking to my dealer, I was a bit discouraged. He wouldn't agree to making the mod for me for liability reasons. He did say, however, that there is virtually no risk in anything up to 200lbs of keel as far as the trunk strength goes. The risk is the board, thin as the glass is, not holding up to the added weight. I talked to three other shops, only one of which would do the mod... $1400. No thanks.
Then I called Joel at IDA sailor. He said that he could make a DB/Keel (new build, not modifying the existing board.) He could get about 150 lbs of solid lead in the lower 1 ft. and make the rest out of various compounds with an oak core. The end result would be a board that will be very strong, and weigh about 180 lbs, with 150 lbs at the bottom. He also would build it slightly thicker diameter than the stock board to fill more of the trunk so it doesn't bank around in there. Cost... 1/2 of what I was quoted to modify the existing board, and no trunk reinforcement or insulation would be required. He also assured me that the trunk will safely take added weight stress up to 200 lbs.
I'm pretty excited about this prospect and getting ready to order the keel. I'm guestimating that an added 150 lbs 5' in the water will effectively add about 400 lbs of ballast. If this is true, that's a 25% improvement, and should make a huge increase in reducing heel, adding stability and an overall improvement in sailing performance. Would love to get some feedback from you guys.
Fair Winds & Merry Christmas!
Keel 180 Lbs
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Frank C
It makes sense that the board is at risk rather than the trunk - as Arena Yachts suggested.
However, if you're gaining 400 lbs. of effective ballast;
and if you're in 20 to 25 knot winds;
and if those winds are heeling the boat while the board is twisting to weather;
I wonder if the DB trunk will be loaded by only 200 lbs. ???
However, if you're gaining 400 lbs. of effective ballast;
and if you're in 20 to 25 knot winds;
and if those winds are heeling the boat while the board is twisting to weather;
I wonder if the DB trunk will be loaded by only 200 lbs. ???
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Terry
- Admiral
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- Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
- Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada. '03 26M - New Yamaha 70
DB
Leon,
Your project does sound exciting. Since IDA is designing a replacement DB it has potential to become part of their product line. If it proves to be an improvement in your case it is very likely others may wish to purchase a superior DB replacement, (like rudders) especially myself. (at a later date when boat bucks are more available). It will be interesting to see their final design shape given the talk on other threads regarding foil shaped DB & CB. Great opportunity here to experiment with shape. Given the extra weight of 180lbs how do you plan on raising and lowering it? The standard one may not be so heavy even though my wife cannot raise it but 180lbs is quite a bit, you may have to modify the way it is lowered & raised to accomodate the extra weight. Still, the idea sounds like it holds promise and I for one will be following your progress. Keep us posted. Thanks in advance.
Your project does sound exciting. Since IDA is designing a replacement DB it has potential to become part of their product line. If it proves to be an improvement in your case it is very likely others may wish to purchase a superior DB replacement, (like rudders) especially myself. (at a later date when boat bucks are more available). It will be interesting to see their final design shape given the talk on other threads regarding foil shaped DB & CB. Great opportunity here to experiment with shape. Given the extra weight of 180lbs how do you plan on raising and lowering it? The standard one may not be so heavy even though my wife cannot raise it but 180lbs is quite a bit, you may have to modify the way it is lowered & raised to accomodate the extra weight. Still, the idea sounds like it holds promise and I for one will be following your progress. Keep us posted. Thanks in advance.
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baldbaby2000
- Admiral
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- Location: Rapid City, SD, 2005 26M, 40hp Tohatsu
- Contact:
Leon,
I and others have been thinking about this for a while. I think it will work. There will be more stress on the trunk and rigging for the same reason there will be more stress if you just have more people for ballast on the high side. I was thinking of a little less weight myself but I might consider getting one like yours since it's stronger than the stock. I already added one pulley for 2:1 purchase in raising the board and it wouldn't be hard to add more pulleys. Keep us informed.
BB
I and others have been thinking about this for a while. I think it will work. There will be more stress on the trunk and rigging for the same reason there will be more stress if you just have more people for ballast on the high side. I was thinking of a little less weight myself but I might consider getting one like yours since it's stronger than the stock. I already added one pulley for 2:1 purchase in raising the board and it wouldn't be hard to add more pulleys. Keep us informed.
BB
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richandlori
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Just be sure to keep your old DB in the event of a boating accident and be sure to not tell the unsurance guy that you modified your boat. (which is insurance fraud, by the way)
I'm telling you from experience....read your insurance policy and pay attention for statements that say something to the effect that ...."you void the terms of your warrenty for making modifications that could affect the stability and performance of your watercraft".
Believe me...they will hold you to this when it comes time for a payout or determining liability.
Just go into this with your eyes wide open....
I'm telling you from experience....read your insurance policy and pay attention for statements that say something to the effect that ...."you void the terms of your warrenty for making modifications that could affect the stability and performance of your watercraft".
Believe me...they will hold you to this when it comes time for a payout or determining liability.
Just go into this with your eyes wide open....
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delevi
- Admiral
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Rich, Thanks for the insurance tip. I'll be sure to keep the old board.
Terry, I plan to replace the kleat which securest the DB line with a rope clutch, which happens to be right in front of the jib sheet winch. I will basically use the winch to raise the keel, as well as have a few wraps around it when opening the rope clutch to lower it steadily. According to Chip, these winches give an 8:1 purchase, which is like raising 23 lbs. I think that's manageable. If that is difficult, I can install a 2:1 like BB and then use the winch, which should make it easy.
Tom, I exchanged emails with Todd, and last I heard, his idea is to add 50 lbs of lead shot to the existing board. I think that is not enough. If you're already going to add weight, I figure make it count. The keel on the pearl is 500 lbs, which did require trunk reinforcement. The 50 lb mod is not ready yet. Having looked at my beat-up board, the fiber glass is really thin and flimsy, so I think I would have to agree with those who advise that the added weight will jeopardize the strength of the board.
Frank, as for actual loads, I certainly don't know. Perhaps others on this board who know better can chime in. This is my one concern about pulling the trigger on the project.
Terry, I plan to replace the kleat which securest the DB line with a rope clutch, which happens to be right in front of the jib sheet winch. I will basically use the winch to raise the keel, as well as have a few wraps around it when opening the rope clutch to lower it steadily. According to Chip, these winches give an 8:1 purchase, which is like raising 23 lbs. I think that's manageable. If that is difficult, I can install a 2:1 like BB and then use the winch, which should make it easy.
Tom, I exchanged emails with Todd, and last I heard, his idea is to add 50 lbs of lead shot to the existing board. I think that is not enough. If you're already going to add weight, I figure make it count. The keel on the pearl is 500 lbs, which did require trunk reinforcement. The 50 lb mod is not ready yet. Having looked at my beat-up board, the fiber glass is really thin and flimsy, so I think I would have to agree with those who advise that the added weight will jeopardize the strength of the board.
Frank, as for actual loads, I certainly don't know. Perhaps others on this board who know better can chime in. This is my one concern about pulling the trigger on the project.
Keel 180 LBS
I would like to post my plan for adding a weighted keel to my 05 M. This is a modification I will perform on my Mac and is not intended to be used as a procedure to modify or repair anyone eles's boat. Your comments are welcomed.
When you think about how strong the trunk needs to be, to take the extra loads associated with increased ballast. You are primarily looking at the area between the floor and the outer shell of the hull. When the DB is down, this is the area that supports it and will have to support the additional loads as well as an accidental grounding impact. I think mine is strong enough. Yours may be different , you will have to make that determination.
The stock DB is not strong enough to handle much additional stress, but the good news is there is a lot of slop (extra space between the DB and trunk). I plan on using this space to my advantage. Here is how I intend to beef up the DB amd reduce the amount of slop at the same time.
First I'm going to sand off some of the gel coat from the DB using a sanding pad (helps to keep a flat surface contour) until the glass starts to become exposed. Then using epoxy (West Systems), I will wrap the DB with 2 plies of unidirectional glass. I will wrap the first ply of glass at a 45 degree angle to the longitudinal axis and the second ply at 45 degrees the other way, so that the fibers cross at 90 degrees to each other. Then I will cover the layup with Dacron Peel Ply while still wet. Once this drys, I will peel off the Dacron from the top 3 feet of the DB. Then wrap an additional 2 plys of unidirectional glass around the DB, starting at the top and stoping approximately 30" down. These will be layed up just like the first plies and covered with Dacron Peel Ply while still wet. I will then peel off the top 24" of peel ply and add an additional 2 (or possiably more) plies of uni glass to the top 18" of the DB to reduce the slop to a reasonable amount. Each time I will cover these layups with peel ply. This will give me a fairly smooth surface that doesn't need to be sanded, before I put on the Gel coat.
I'm going to cast a solid lead keel insert that slides up into the DB and bonded in place with an epoxy flox mix. I will be using a 1/8" SS cable attached to the bottom center of the lead insert and a small 12v winch (with manual back up) to lift and lower it.
Garry LeGare 05 M/Etec 50
When you think about how strong the trunk needs to be, to take the extra loads associated with increased ballast. You are primarily looking at the area between the floor and the outer shell of the hull. When the DB is down, this is the area that supports it and will have to support the additional loads as well as an accidental grounding impact. I think mine is strong enough. Yours may be different , you will have to make that determination.
The stock DB is not strong enough to handle much additional stress, but the good news is there is a lot of slop (extra space between the DB and trunk). I plan on using this space to my advantage. Here is how I intend to beef up the DB amd reduce the amount of slop at the same time.
First I'm going to sand off some of the gel coat from the DB using a sanding pad (helps to keep a flat surface contour) until the glass starts to become exposed. Then using epoxy (West Systems), I will wrap the DB with 2 plies of unidirectional glass. I will wrap the first ply of glass at a 45 degree angle to the longitudinal axis and the second ply at 45 degrees the other way, so that the fibers cross at 90 degrees to each other. Then I will cover the layup with Dacron Peel Ply while still wet. Once this drys, I will peel off the Dacron from the top 3 feet of the DB. Then wrap an additional 2 plys of unidirectional glass around the DB, starting at the top and stoping approximately 30" down. These will be layed up just like the first plies and covered with Dacron Peel Ply while still wet. I will then peel off the top 24" of peel ply and add an additional 2 (or possiably more) plies of uni glass to the top 18" of the DB to reduce the slop to a reasonable amount. Each time I will cover these layups with peel ply. This will give me a fairly smooth surface that doesn't need to be sanded, before I put on the Gel coat.
I'm going to cast a solid lead keel insert that slides up into the DB and bonded in place with an epoxy flox mix. I will be using a 1/8" SS cable attached to the bottom center of the lead insert and a small 12v winch (with manual back up) to lift and lower it.
Garry LeGare 05 M/Etec 50
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Frank C
Interesting plan.
I'm curious about the shape of the casting, and how much it will weigh?
I guess the casting will resemble an upside-down "T" so the weight is lower?
If casting will be cabled to the boat anyhow, not sure of a need for bonding, unless that just assures that the DB drops along with the casting?
I didn't quite understand the wrapping process, but then mine is a 26X, so I don't need to.
I'm curious about the shape of the casting, and how much it will weigh?
I guess the casting will resemble an upside-down "T" so the weight is lower?
If casting will be cabled to the boat anyhow, not sure of a need for bonding, unless that just assures that the DB drops along with the casting?
I didn't quite understand the wrapping process, but then mine is a 26X, so I don't need to.
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delevi
- Admiral
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Moe,
Versail, I think you are probably right about the trunk being strong enough. I was told by two sources that anything up to 200 lbs should be Ok. I also looked at the sketch of the
on the Macgregor site and see that the trunk runs right through the permanent (lead) ballast. This should give even more support. This is the area which will hold all the load when the board is fully down. Good luck with your mod. Please keep us posted. Your plan is certainly beyond my handy skills, so I will have mine made by some who knows what he's doing.
The keel that Joel at IDA Sailor offered to build would not use the existing board at all, so no reinforcing rods are required. He would create a mould and start from scratch. He also plans to make it a bit wider and deeper to take up the slop in the trunk. He believes he can get 150 lbs in the lower 1 foot, since he will be using solid lead, not shot. I hope that the extra volume doesn't create much drag.150 pounds of solid lead is 364 cubic inches. Given the fore-aft length and average width of the daggerboard, i.e. its cross-section area, I think it's going to need to go up further than the lower 12", especially since some of that volume will be consumed by reinforcing rods through the lead?
Versail, I think you are probably right about the trunk being strong enough. I was told by two sources that anything up to 200 lbs should be Ok. I also looked at the sketch of the
on the Macgregor site and see that the trunk runs right through the permanent (lead) ballast. This should give even more support. This is the area which will hold all the load when the board is fully down. Good luck with your mod. Please keep us posted. Your plan is certainly beyond my handy skills, so I will have mine made by some who knows what he's doing.Something else to consider is the increased loads this will put on the shrouds, spreaders, and chainplates. The Mac's tendency to heel easily limits the wind loads on these and protects them somewhat.
And just because the trunk runs through the fixed ballast doesn't mean there won't be cracked gelcoat inside it.
Reducing sail area seems a more prudent route to me.
And just because the trunk runs through the fixed ballast doesn't mean there won't be cracked gelcoat inside it.
Reducing sail area seems a more prudent route to me.
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They Theirs
- Captain
- Posts: 790
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:42 pm
I love to hear stories of those willing to push the limits of unknown benefits. Ive owned a powerful old fractional rig with similar rigging (5/32 standing 1X19 SS all around, Main 31 with a 13 boom. The Mac has a similar headsail too, so they both have a little over 300 sq ft of rag up with Main and Jib. The Blade Keel was stationary and 1500+ lbs of cast iron thin at the hull and largest at the bottom. It is very responsive and even today is considered a benchmark of Keelboats in the 26-foot range, and is published in sail magazine as being in the Top Ten of all time PHRF performers. The Mac 5/32" Rigging is surely stout enough
The Mack is tender, and I also lust over the possibility of enhancing the Righting Moment even for some incremental increase benefiting the drive and pointing ability for the Mac to stand-up and point closer to the wind.
Before I would apply Boat-Bucks adding such an expensive weighted Dagger Board, I would certainly remove the FF2 and attempt to lighten the spar (Maybe by removing Foam filling?) and attempting the BWY light duty running backs (It appears they will be an immense benefit, but I have seen little to confirm this) They will certainly tighten the head stay to improve windward performance with a good cut on the sails were using for conditions, but pray someway, somhow were able to bring a good traveler into the cockpit to better control the "M".
The more I hope you are successful in bettering the breed with a bolt on improvement, I hope the mass of heavy weight strength does not prove to be more a hindrance, and damage the board trunk or hull around it, rather than the OEM break-away Dagger Board.
I love the excitement of those willing to show up and overcome the cynic.
The Mack is tender, and I also lust over the possibility of enhancing the Righting Moment even for some incremental increase benefiting the drive and pointing ability for the Mac to stand-up and point closer to the wind.
Before I would apply Boat-Bucks adding such an expensive weighted Dagger Board, I would certainly remove the FF2 and attempt to lighten the spar (Maybe by removing Foam filling?) and attempting the BWY light duty running backs (It appears they will be an immense benefit, but I have seen little to confirm this) They will certainly tighten the head stay to improve windward performance with a good cut on the sails were using for conditions, but pray someway, somhow were able to bring a good traveler into the cockpit to better control the "M".
The more I hope you are successful in bettering the breed with a bolt on improvement, I hope the mass of heavy weight strength does not prove to be more a hindrance, and damage the board trunk or hull around it, rather than the OEM break-away Dagger Board.
I love the excitement of those willing to show up and overcome the cynic.
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delevi
- Admiral
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- Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 1:03 am
- Location: San Francisco Catalina 380, former 26M owner
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I don't think there would be much increase in stress loads. Instead of the load going sideways, rolling the boat over, it would just translate into more forward drive. Same load, better result. I'm no engineer but this is my SWAG. Also, Todd's Black Pearl has been holding up quite well with a 500 lb keel, granted with a reinforced trunk, but I'll be using 180 lbs.Something else to consider is the increased loads this will put on the shrouds, spreaders, and chainplates. The Mac's tendency to heel easily limits the wind loads on these and protects them somewhat.
I asked many questions of Arena Yachts & Joe at IDA Sailor and got much reassurance that the trunk is plenty strong, especially in the area where the DB will be supported when fully deployed. Also, consider that the stock board pushes on the trunk to move the boat forward instead of sideways.... wouldn't added weight with a pendulum effect pushing the opposite way essentially alleviate/counter any additional loads?And just because the trunk runs through the fixed ballast doesn't mean there won't be cracked gelcoat inside it.
I have now busted two stock boards. One completely broke and my existing one is quite chewed up. These two experiences have lead me to surmise that the stock board is a flimsy piece of junk. I would like a more heavy duty board made, and in so doing, why not try to add the weight while I'm at it? I have a strong hunch that the boat will heel considerably less and be more stable in brisk to rough conditions, and in turn, sail faster. Sure hope I'm right. Many on this board have installed huge outboards, which are far beyond factory specs. I haven't run across any threads where anyone has reported problems from using these large engines. IMHO, this is in the same league as the mod Im planning to do.
I do reduce sail area, but often, that isn't enough. And in 15-20 knt winds, it would be nice to sometimes not reef without riding the boat on its side and the constant roundups.Reducing sail area seems a more prudent route to me.
I haven't ordered the keel yet, but am getting close. I actually haven't been able to go to the boat to trace the DB trunk opening to order the job. We've had a lot of rain out here. Until then, I'll keep checking in to see if someone can talk me out of it.
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Dimitri-2000X-Tampa
- Admiral
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- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Tampa, Florida 2000 Mercury BigFoot 50HP 4-Stroke on 26X hull# 3575.B000
CB vs DB
Leon, its rather interesting that you have gone through 2 boards on a 2005 26M. Was this just during normal sailing conditions or did you hit ground at all? I take it you are still covered by warranty but it does make you wonder about the design. On my 2000 26X, I am just finishing up my CB renovation project and it looks to be in good shape except for a couple areas. One being the very tip where the gelcoat is ground away some from dragging on the ground and another little spot where the CB line has apparently made a bit of indentation (gelcoat gone). Oh well, I painted over both blemishes but I certainly didn't see any stress cracking like I see on both my rudders and I think I've only heard of one or two cases where a 26X CB actually broke off. Intuitively, one might think that the X CB design with more moving parts would be less durable than a fixed DB design on the M.
Well, enough posting..time to go outside and re-install my old (but now fully painted) CB with its new hanger/pin and new (black) line. Btw, I was going to post on an old thread that the knot in my CB line was a compressed figure 8 stopper knot, but it appears all posts older than 6 months or so are now locked.
I'm hoping to get the rest of my work done this year! I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel after doing 3 weeks of engine work, 2 weeks of trailer repairs and another 4 weeks or so of bottom scrape/paint and CB overhaul work....I miss sailing but all this work had gotten to the manditory stage and hopefully, I don't need to do much more work for another 5 years or so! Hey, that was one of the main reasons I got a Mac...rather sail than work on it...
Well, enough posting..time to go outside and re-install my old (but now fully painted) CB with its new hanger/pin and new (black) line. Btw, I was going to post on an old thread that the knot in my CB line was a compressed figure 8 stopper knot, but it appears all posts older than 6 months or so are now locked.
I'm hoping to get the rest of my work done this year! I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel after doing 3 weeks of engine work, 2 weeks of trailer repairs and another 4 weeks or so of bottom scrape/paint and CB overhaul work....I miss sailing but all this work had gotten to the manditory stage and hopefully, I don't need to do much more work for another 5 years or so! Hey, that was one of the main reasons I got a Mac...rather sail than work on it...