Ok, I think I beat this horse to death already, but lets just make sure. Finally got a break from the rains and went out for a great afternoon of sailing on San Francisco Bay. There was a nice breeze, averaging 8-12 mph. Sailed on a beam reach to a broad reach all the for about 10 miles. On the return trip, I was on a close reach. The wind picked up a bit, ranging from 10-15. Now here is my issue. As the breeze dropped off, I had my main trimmed in pretty much centerline. Traveler was sheeted in the center and the mainsheet was sheeted really tight. My sail was luffing. No, I wasnt in irons. The jib was also trimmed in tight and worked just fine. I was about 45 degrees to the wind. Then I remembered an older thread on this board about backwinding the main. I let out some jib and the main stopped luffing. Trouble is, it wasnt possible to have perfect trim on both sails. But I digress. I created this thread because of the ongoing problem of sail flutter I have been having along the aft portion of the sail. Primarily along the leech, but really the aft of the sail. Ive tried everything from cutting bolt rope stitching to maximum tension on the halyard and outhaul, tightening the leech line. The damn thing just keeps fluttering. Sometimes I can get it right for a while by cranking down the leech line, but it will loosen up eventually, or if the boat heels hard in a gust, the back side of the sail starts flapping like crazy. Is it possible for a sail to blow out near the leech? What are the characteristics of a blown out sail? Does anyone have anything to say about backwinding the main with the jib? Looking forward to some words of wisdom. Thanks.
Leon
Characteristics of a blown out sail
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They Theirs
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Chip Hindes
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Not necessarily. There are quiter a number of reasons you'll stall the aft edge of the main besides the sail being blown out.
About the only time the sails shoulds be sheeted in tight to the centerline is on a beat in fairly high winds.
Particluarly with the M which is optimized to work under main alone, I suggest furling or dropping the jib completely, then experimenting with the main alone. If you can't get it to draw correctly by itself, then it might be blown out.
About the only time the sails shoulds be sheeted in tight to the centerline is on a beat in fairly high winds.
Particluarly with the M which is optimized to work under main alone, I suggest furling or dropping the jib completely, then experimenting with the main alone. If you can't get it to draw correctly by itself, then it might be blown out.
It would be extremely beneficial if you could post photos rather than have us all speculate and pontificate. next time you go sailing, take pictures for us. A picture is worth a thousand words in this case.
There are so many things that may cause luffing of the sail and it really does depend on the where and the characteristics of the "luffing" Same goes for the leech.
It could be jib causing backwind, sail trim of the main, sail blown out, halyard tension/bolt rope, and the list goes on.
I'm thinking it's a combination of 3 things but not willing to spew insight until I can see the symptoms (the sail in action)
There are so many things that may cause luffing of the sail and it really does depend on the where and the characteristics of the "luffing" Same goes for the leech.
It could be jib causing backwind, sail trim of the main, sail blown out, halyard tension/bolt rope, and the list goes on.
I'm thinking it's a combination of 3 things but not willing to spew insight until I can see the symptoms (the sail in action)
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They Theirs
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I believe it is time to have a professional look at your sail. A good sail maker can tell the condition of your sails. If the sail is worthy of a re-cut, replacing or sewing the boltrope down, repair the leach cord adjustment. This is all considering you have not mentioned any draft stripes or draft position. As sails in heavy air (On the Frisco Bay) break-in a Cunningham will bring the draft position forward with the use of the Flattening Reef to flatten the sail with bending the mast and increasing the halyard, and outhaul tension to get the best sail shape. Have the sail maker look over your (Engine), your sails, as that expensive dagger board improvement will be less than expected with the OEM marginal Sails. It cost to Go-Big but it will be money well spent as I note your desire to have your M performing up to expectations.
While a sailmaker can tell the gross problems of a sail while it's sitting on the floor, they can't help with sail trim in anything more than an abstract way unless they come out on the boat with you or observe from shore. The best way to troubleshoot this problem is for someone to see the sail in action (in person or lots of photos) and then to inspect the sail.
By posting photos we can quickly identify what might be sail trim and major condition problems, while a hands on inspection will provide more detail as to the root of the sail condition problems.
By posting photos we can quickly identify what might be sail trim and major condition problems, while a hands on inspection will provide more detail as to the root of the sail condition problems.
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They Theirs
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Ill agree to your photo for value combined with the owners description of conditions.
Following this thread for some time, Im merely suggesting some of the basic problems such as re-attaching or replacing the boltrope and repairing the leach cord. The Loft might inspect the sail from the owners description of its continued problems before committing to an on the water test. Were not talking about sails purchased from the loft, or having been in for previous upgrades or modifications. These are very inexpensive sails produced by Doyle of light Dacron for general use. I would not expect the loft to devote time for something so trivial as a potential problem sail of this type without being compensated for his time with some expectation of investment in a new sail. I feel in this case the sail qualifies under the Gross Problem rule until some repairs are made and then under duress someone from the loft is willing to invest the time on the water.
Knowing the owner is spending some considerable time and money for upgrades on an experimental Dagger Board upgrade, the OEM problem sail having been used hard in the Frisco Bay conditions, might just be better suited to some repairs and flattening. It could be used for back-up or even heavy air sailing, saving a quality New Sail for the best of sailing conditions where its performance can be utilized without subjecting it to potential damage from too much big wind.
Following this thread for some time, Im merely suggesting some of the basic problems such as re-attaching or replacing the boltrope and repairing the leach cord. The Loft might inspect the sail from the owners description of its continued problems before committing to an on the water test. Were not talking about sails purchased from the loft, or having been in for previous upgrades or modifications. These are very inexpensive sails produced by Doyle of light Dacron for general use. I would not expect the loft to devote time for something so trivial as a potential problem sail of this type without being compensated for his time with some expectation of investment in a new sail. I feel in this case the sail qualifies under the Gross Problem rule until some repairs are made and then under duress someone from the loft is willing to invest the time on the water.
Knowing the owner is spending some considerable time and money for upgrades on an experimental Dagger Board upgrade, the OEM problem sail having been used hard in the Frisco Bay conditions, might just be better suited to some repairs and flattening. It could be used for back-up or even heavy air sailing, saving a quality New Sail for the best of sailing conditions where its performance can be utilized without subjecting it to potential damage from too much big wind.
Fair enough. I've just seen way too many sails come through the doors where laying the sail out on the floor doesn't identify the problem. I always ask for people in bring in or email photos of the sail while they are out sailing. I have them take from the luff, half-way back looking up, and from the clew looking up the leech. I ask them to include the windspeed and any special/relevant data for their type of sail and boat as well.
By doing the photo thing I can give people a short analysis of the sail and their trim. It takes me all of 5-10 minutes and it provides them a much more satisfying experience as we can really begin to solve the sail problem which is usually about half sail trim and half sail shape life.
It means they can save money and become stronger sailors.
By doing the photo thing I can give people a short analysis of the sail and their trim. It takes me all of 5-10 minutes and it provides them a much more satisfying experience as we can really begin to solve the sail problem which is usually about half sail trim and half sail shape life.
It means they can save money and become stronger sailors.
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delevi
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Tripp Gal,
Sounds like you're a sailmaker. I wish I had my camera with me. Usually, when I'm out sailing, my wife prefers to just hang out and have me do all the sailing work, so I'm basically single-handing. That with the boat heeling 25 degrees can be challanging to take photos of the sail, but I'll give it a shot next time out.
I'm thinking about cranking down my leech line a bit harder than I would usually set it, and tie a stop knot so it doesn't work its way free, as it does after about 10 minutes. Leech line tension usually takes care of the problem, but I do get a bit of cupping along the leech. There just seems to be no ideal way to get this sail just right. This has been an ongoing problem for over 6 months, and I've tried most everything. Hard to imagine that a sail would get ruined after just a 1 1/2 years. I do sail frequently and often in heavy winds on San Francisco Bay, but still. 1 1/2 years
That sure would be a short lifespan. From what I understand, a blown out sail is just too baggy and can't be flattened sufficiently for moderate to heavy air. I don't see that with my sail. It's that aft portion that just seems to have insufficient support, as if I didn't have battens in there. Almost seems like I need four more. Yes, I checked them. They're fine. I actually replaced an entire set because of the aft portion fluttering so much that I lost battens. Just popped out of the pockets. I had to stitch them shut.
Leon
Sounds like you're a sailmaker. I wish I had my camera with me. Usually, when I'm out sailing, my wife prefers to just hang out and have me do all the sailing work, so I'm basically single-handing. That with the boat heeling 25 degrees can be challanging to take photos of the sail, but I'll give it a shot next time out.
I'm thinking about cranking down my leech line a bit harder than I would usually set it, and tie a stop knot so it doesn't work its way free, as it does after about 10 minutes. Leech line tension usually takes care of the problem, but I do get a bit of cupping along the leech. There just seems to be no ideal way to get this sail just right. This has been an ongoing problem for over 6 months, and I've tried most everything. Hard to imagine that a sail would get ruined after just a 1 1/2 years. I do sail frequently and often in heavy winds on San Francisco Bay, but still. 1 1/2 years
That sure would be a short lifespan. From what I understand, a blown out sail is just too baggy and can't be flattened sufficiently for moderate to heavy air. I don't see that with my sail. It's that aft portion that just seems to have insufficient support, as if I didn't have battens in there. Almost seems like I need four more. Yes, I checked them. They're fine. I actually replaced an entire set because of the aft portion fluttering so much that I lost battens. Just popped out of the pockets. I had to stitch them shut. Leon
The jam cleats used on the leech cords are notorious for slipping. I can recommend some fine sandpaper rubbed onto the jaws to help with grip, but they always require some level of macrame to hold.
The leech is always the first to go on a sail as it's the place that sees the most stress, if all things are set right and you have to induce enough leech cord that the sail becomes a bowl, then it's time for a little tuck and bind.
1.5 years for shape life isn't unusual for dacron that gets used regularly, especially if the regular use is high winds with a light weave.
The leech is always the first to go on a sail as it's the place that sees the most stress, if all things are set right and you have to induce enough leech cord that the sail becomes a bowl, then it's time for a little tuck and bind.
1.5 years for shape life isn't unusual for dacron that gets used regularly, especially if the regular use is high winds with a light weave.
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They Theirs
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Most sailors dream to sail in the kind of wind you see most days on the Frisco Bay. A good sail made to fit a spar and boat, used for weekend cruising can last longer, but not for those interested in peak performance and racing in the kind of wind found on the bay. I might just be happy to have them serviceable as a years time in those conditions could surely take its toll on some of your sail inventory. They might obtain a re-cut to flatten and re-shape a quality Dacron sail, and better quality sails made of radial cut laminates hold their shape longer in heavy air only to become a cruising sail or picnic tablecloth when used hard . The standard MacGregor rigging begs for upgrading and then benefits from better sails and controls, especially in the kind of wind youre sailing.
A year and a half does not seem too long for a sail of such marginal Dacron cloth to be consumed by the bays heavy air. Good Sails are expensive as are better engines. They are only as good as the sail maker and Sailor who maintain and use them. Racing sailors know not to use their oz or 30/20 spinnakers in a hard blow; they have smaller heavy air sails manufactured to withstand the stress of heavy air.
No performance sailor could expect light Dacron Mac Sails to hold up to heavy air any more than they would care to use their heavy air sails in light conditions. Choosing a sail inventory for a cruising boat can be more difficult, as we expect them to perform in variable wind conditions. Many mistake the Roller Furling for an answer, but find its basic loss of performance from forestay sag more dysfunctional than the poor shape when partially furled with a padded luff, even if the furling unit were able to maintain any control over the halyard tension and provide the ability to change sails to benefit conditions.
Leach Cord Tension is set to remove flutter. The cord is not to be drawn through the V of the jam cleat, but tension is pulled well above the V in the opening of the jam cleat. Drawing the cord through the "V" will more or less, straight away, destroy any holding ability manufactured into the small plastic cleat. Never tension the cord in the "V" of the leach cord cleat. Replacement cleats are available and can be re-attached. They wear out with use.
Leach Lines
Your mainsail and perhaps some or all of you jib sails may have a leach line. This is a small line that is sewn into the fold of fabric along the sail's leach. There is normally a small cleat near the sail's clew so that you can secure the leach line after you've adjusted the line's tension. The leach line is a precaution line that better sail makers add with the idea of the sail lasting longer.
As the sail ages and stretches, the leach often becomes "soft" and begins to flutter even when the breeze is perfectly flowing on the rest of the sail. Increasing the tension on the leach line controls leach flutter. Leach flutter can disturb the air flowing on your sail - making the sail less effective, especially for upwind points of sail.
Many jib sails also have leach lines that act similarly to the leach lines on mainsails. Any time you see the leach of either a mainsail or jib start to flutter, increase the tension on the leach line.
The danger of adjusting the leach lines is that some skippers tighten these lines too much and actually cup or hook the leach of the sail causing the sail to stall and become less efficient. Watch the tension on the leach lines so that you have smooth airflow from both sides of the sail.
A year and a half does not seem too long for a sail of such marginal Dacron cloth to be consumed by the bays heavy air. Good Sails are expensive as are better engines. They are only as good as the sail maker and Sailor who maintain and use them. Racing sailors know not to use their oz or 30/20 spinnakers in a hard blow; they have smaller heavy air sails manufactured to withstand the stress of heavy air.
No performance sailor could expect light Dacron Mac Sails to hold up to heavy air any more than they would care to use their heavy air sails in light conditions. Choosing a sail inventory for a cruising boat can be more difficult, as we expect them to perform in variable wind conditions. Many mistake the Roller Furling for an answer, but find its basic loss of performance from forestay sag more dysfunctional than the poor shape when partially furled with a padded luff, even if the furling unit were able to maintain any control over the halyard tension and provide the ability to change sails to benefit conditions.
Leach Cord Tension is set to remove flutter. The cord is not to be drawn through the V of the jam cleat, but tension is pulled well above the V in the opening of the jam cleat. Drawing the cord through the "V" will more or less, straight away, destroy any holding ability manufactured into the small plastic cleat. Never tension the cord in the "V" of the leach cord cleat. Replacement cleats are available and can be re-attached. They wear out with use.
Leach Lines
Your mainsail and perhaps some or all of you jib sails may have a leach line. This is a small line that is sewn into the fold of fabric along the sail's leach. There is normally a small cleat near the sail's clew so that you can secure the leach line after you've adjusted the line's tension. The leach line is a precaution line that better sail makers add with the idea of the sail lasting longer.
As the sail ages and stretches, the leach often becomes "soft" and begins to flutter even when the breeze is perfectly flowing on the rest of the sail. Increasing the tension on the leach line controls leach flutter. Leach flutter can disturb the air flowing on your sail - making the sail less effective, especially for upwind points of sail.
Many jib sails also have leach lines that act similarly to the leach lines on mainsails. Any time you see the leach of either a mainsail or jib start to flutter, increase the tension on the leach line.
The danger of adjusting the leach lines is that some skippers tighten these lines too much and actually cup or hook the leach of the sail causing the sail to stall and become less efficient. Watch the tension on the leach lines so that you have smooth airflow from both sides of the sail.
Last edited by They Theirs on Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Night Sailor
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traveler position
Delevi, I have not been following your thread so don't know if you might have mentioned it before but here you write: "Traveler was sheeted in the center and the mainsheet was sheeted really tight"
On a previous larger boat with 20 year old dacron cruising weight sails I cured a problem such as you describe just by moving the traveler upwind the full length of it's run, then let out the mainsheet until it was trimmed perfectly. With the boat so adjusted I let go of the tiller and watch the boat sail itself. It would not do so without moving the traveler to weather.
If that doesn't work for you, then I think your sail does need refurb.
On a previous larger boat with 20 year old dacron cruising weight sails I cured a problem such as you describe just by moving the traveler upwind the full length of it's run, then let out the mainsheet until it was trimmed perfectly. With the boat so adjusted I let go of the tiller and watch the boat sail itself. It would not do so without moving the traveler to weather.
If that doesn't work for you, then I think your sail does need refurb.
As sails age you always need to start opening the leech back up by inducing twist and flattening out the top of the sail (backstay)
As the sail ages the leech gets soft and the exit of the sail starts curving to weather when under load. It's affectionately called the soup bowl effect. By closing the leech off your upwind performance (point and speed) start to diminish. To offset that problem you can induce twist in the sail to balance the increasing amount of leech closure. In order to add twist but still keep some level of speed on, you have to bring up the traveller. Just remember for the amount of traveller you bring up you need to ease the mainsheet enough for the boom to stay at centerline or just below depending on the conditions. Remember that most of this discussion if for upwind performance, not downwind.
As the sail ages the leech gets soft and the exit of the sail starts curving to weather when under load. It's affectionately called the soup bowl effect. By closing the leech off your upwind performance (point and speed) start to diminish. To offset that problem you can induce twist in the sail to balance the increasing amount of leech closure. In order to add twist but still keep some level of speed on, you have to bring up the traveller. Just remember for the amount of traveller you bring up you need to ease the mainsheet enough for the boom to stay at centerline or just below depending on the conditions. Remember that most of this discussion if for upwind performance, not downwind.
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delevi
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Thanks Tripp Gal, TT & Nightsailor.
It is enlightening to learn that the leech is the first to go. I always thought that it was the other way around, which is why I was baffled at this problem.
I have worked the traveler with different twist settings and depending on wind conditions and how close to the wind I'm sailing, the effect can either boost or reduce performance. I guess this is the art of sailing. As for the leech, I just tensioned it tight and tied a stop knot so it won't slide through the V-cleat. Havent sailed this way yet, but I believe this will stop the flutter, but surely give me that "SOUP BOWL" effect. There seems to be no middle ground... soup bowl or flutter. I think I will rough it out until the end of the season and replace the sail, or perhaps both. I don't want to pour any more money into this low-end stock sail, which costs under $500 new. I'm sure I'll spend a few hundred in repairs, and I would rather put that towards quality new sails. The only question is Dacron or a laminate. I guess laminates perform better but Dacron lasts longer. Not sure if I want to open that can of worms right now.
Tripp Gal, If you make sails for the Mac, I would love to get your info. I will be in the market in 6-12 months. Please PM me if you would. Thanks a lot.
Leon
It is enlightening to learn that the leech is the first to go. I always thought that it was the other way around, which is why I was baffled at this problem.
I have worked the traveler with different twist settings and depending on wind conditions and how close to the wind I'm sailing, the effect can either boost or reduce performance. I guess this is the art of sailing. As for the leech, I just tensioned it tight and tied a stop knot so it won't slide through the V-cleat. Havent sailed this way yet, but I believe this will stop the flutter, but surely give me that "SOUP BOWL" effect. There seems to be no middle ground... soup bowl or flutter. I think I will rough it out until the end of the season and replace the sail, or perhaps both. I don't want to pour any more money into this low-end stock sail, which costs under $500 new. I'm sure I'll spend a few hundred in repairs, and I would rather put that towards quality new sails. The only question is Dacron or a laminate. I guess laminates perform better but Dacron lasts longer. Not sure if I want to open that can of worms right now.
Tripp Gal, If you make sails for the Mac, I would love to get your info. I will be in the market in 6-12 months. Please PM me if you would. Thanks a lot.
Leon