Rudders up or down?

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Chinook,

We just spent last week in Leavenworth for our 'Winter Break' vacation. We rented a house on Lake Jolanda right next to the Alps candy store 5 min up US-2 from downtown. We had a great time cross country skiing and sleding.

As far as boating, maybe a better question is where haven't we been. We've had the boat for 5 seasons now and still have a long list of places to see in Puget Sound and the Inside Passage. As of the end of last season our log stands at 76 days aboard and we have covered 1,309.83 nautical miles. For the most part this is family outings with my wife and 3 boys. Some are just day trips, many are multi night with our longest outing to date standing at 23 days straight.

Our log book is online at

http://www.ddunn.org/Boating.htm

You'll find detailed info and pictures on all our trips as well as our mods. I just recently got the site updated with the last of the info from 2005. Check it out.

[mtc]

Depth allowing, both rudders down and CB 1/2 way or lower if deep enough. Boat's so much easier to control.

Michael

[Zoran]

Remember the rudders (and the centerboard on the 26X) will only kick up if you are going forward.

Bill, I find that is more a myth. Centerboard will kick up because it is not tied but in couple occasions I hit the sand bars and I could hear lines getting tighter on the cleats but the rudders never popped out. I also pulled the boat out of the water with the rudders down and they were grinded by 2" or more and they never kicked up.
I've seen guys replacing the lines with the bungees.

Zoran

[Moe]

We used the Duane Dunn method of tying the rudder lines and they WILL kick up that way. The technique is to grab the line that goes to the rudder pull-down hole, and get it tight going under the cleat. With the other hand, grab the line going to the rudder pull-up hole, pull the slack out of it, and wrap it around the cleat 1-1/2 to 2 times before tying a cleat hitch. This pinches the line going to the pull down hole between the deck and the double-wrapped line and is enough to hold the rudder down in all situations we saw. However, if the rudder hits an obstruction, it will overcome that pinch, pulling out the line that is normally left in a loop and the rudder will be able to raise. It could possibly burn the gel coat, but I find that preferable to breaking a rudder. Of course you could also use the bungi cord.

--
Moe

[Catigale]

DItto Moes post above. On the Hudson we are always running into Shallows up at my end near ALbany - not worrying about breaking off the rudder lets you squeeze the extra hundred feet out of the tacks which makes sailing a lot more pleasant.

Worth repeating - if you do let the rudders flop back the helm effort shoots way up - dont do this for long or you will stress/strain/break something

[delevi]

I keep mine cleated so they won't kick up. I had a friend at the helm while sailing in Lake Tahoe. Fortunately it was down wind and the DB was all the way up. The rudders hit a rock, raising the stern up a foot or two as we rode over it. Rudders stayed in position without kicking up. After pulling them up, cringing at what I would see, I was relieved to find only a small chunk was edged out of the tip of each rudder. Not nearly as bad as I thought. Some gelcoat and sanding and they were good as new.

[RHC]

What's the primary advantage of having any CB down at all while docking?
Got my 26X last yr and banged starboard side against corner of pier 2X that season causing small crack in hull. Current is strong port-to-starboard. Pondering my problem over the long rainy winter, I concluded that I will dock w/ CB up this season to minimize being carried by current sideways.

[DLT]

Yeah, current would be an issue, although won't you be fighting it anyway?

I find the daggerboard is most helpful in just low speed control, whether that be tracking a line or turning.

You're right in that it would be much more helpful in combating wind rather than current...

[zuma hans 1]

This is why having a DEPTH FINDER is so important...

I don't theenk so. Relying on an electric gizmo while all hull is breaking loose and a bunch of Bud-swilling stinkpot drivers are waiting for you to get out of the way is not a good scenario.

I've never seen a depthfinder that can tell you about rocks, ramp weirdness, submerged pilings, etc with the precision you would need in wading depths.

At an unfamiliar ramp, I say ALWAYS tie up at the courtesy dock, then scope it out on foot if at all possible. Get wet. Know what's down there.

Last time I came ashore at Cabrillo/San Pedro, it was at an extremely low tide. Had I not gotten out of the boat and inspected the cement ramp on foot, in the 58 degree salt, I would have missed the fact that the cement ramp ended in 6 inches of dark water ... a big dropoff that would have grabbed the trailer (boat or no boat) and would have required me to find people to lift it up.

The boat that came in behind me did exactly that.

No depth finder would have foreseen that.

[Chip Hindes]

Absent confounding factors such as countercurrent crosswinds, a boat travelling cross current will go sideways at the speed of the current regardless of whether the CB is up or down.

The CB is for steering control. At low speed, with the CB down the boat will tend to pivot on the board. With the CB up it will skid sidways to the direction you're trying to turn. In a stiff crosswind, you will not be able to turn into the wind at all.

[Hamin' X]

The CB is for steering control. At low speed, with the CB down the boat will tend to pivot on the board. With the CB up it will skid sidways to the direction you're trying to turn. In a stiff crosswind, you will not be able to turn into the wind at all.

How about ballast, Chip. Is there a difference in control with ballast in, versus ballast out?

Rich

[Chip Hindes]

Hamin':

I can't really answer that definitively for all situations.

The boat is certainly more responsive to the helm with the ballast out. In fact, many will probably find that they tend to overcorrect in this situation.

With the ballast in, the boat is less responsive to the helm, no doubt, but it is also less susceptible to wind and wave action. This is a pretty light boat with a lot of freeboard. In situations wherein these are present, I find the "bobbing like a cork" behavior to be difficult to control, and I believe it's better in this situation to have the ballast in for docking.

But I admit, my own personal experience tends to bias my answer somewhat.

I think frequent singlehanding demands that you refine your docking skills as a matter of self preservation. When you have no help, you can't be sloppy and just run up to the dock, counting on somebody else to fend off for you and then jump to the dock, mooring line in hand. You tend to be much more careful about getting it right.

I enjoy sailing much more than motoring, so by default I tend to operate most of the time with ballast in. I like nothing better than to sail into my slip without ever firing the motor. I also frequently singlehand, and about ninety five percent of the time, discretion being the better part of valor, I stop sailing a couple hundred feet short of the marina, fire the motor and then prepare the boat for docking under power. Our current marina (this year is our first) unlike many, is about 75% sailboats. Though there are no signs (sailors don't need signs to tell them about no wake zones) the members take the basic ettiquette of no wake zones very seriously, and it would be extremely bad form at that point to motor around at high speed to empty the ballast. At the same time, it offends my sensibilities to stop sailing early and fire the the motor well outside the sensitive area, again for no other reason than to empty the ballast.

So the point of this long story is that I normally dock with ballast. I'm used to it, I'm much more familiar with the way the boat handles, and I prefer it even when the situation allows it to be otherwise. In fact, I can think of a number of times after motoring without ballast, that I have stopped, opened the valve and superfilled the ballast just prior to docking.

[NautiMoments]

I agree with Chip. I prefer to dock with ballast full to dampen windage. The boat will move with the current whether ballast is in or out and DB up or down. As Chip said you need the DB or CB down to give the boat something to pivot on for steerage. For steerage you need to keep water running past your foils at all time or the wind can blow your bow off. Sometimes it is better to reverse your slip

In our marina a lot of people reverse in to their slips, party position. Our slip is about 10 fingers down and the boat beside us sticks out a bit. At first I tried going forward down between the fingers to our slip, then stopping and reversing in. Even with all foils down the bow would blow off in the wind as soon as I stopped. Then I tried reversing down between the fingers and into the slip. With constant flow of water past the foils the boat performed beautifully and I LOOKED like a professional. But the DB and rudders down has always been a must with these boats since there is no keel and so much windage.

[Moondance]

RE: I also find having the rudders down with the motor makes a BIG difference in control. I always use at least one around docks. The outboard really has very little surface area compared to the rudders. Having them down will increase you control at slow speeds. The outboard alone is even worse in neutral. With the rudders down you have full control as you glide into the dock and can quickly hit the brakes with reverse at just the right time.
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I agree 100%. I feel I have very little control without everything down if there is any wind at all. Without the CB down the wind can easily push the boat ( with it's high sides ) around like a tin pie plate on the water.

I feel much safer with the rudders down as ( stated above ) when coasting into the dock you can't steer at all ( with just the motor in neutral) as you need to have the motor in gear to do any steering at all.

I've been able to sail in many times ( roller furler jib ) right up to the dock, motor on and ready for a quick shot of reverse, furl in the jib at the last second and you're home.

Maybe more practice will change my perceptions but for the moment I'm for all 3 feet planted firmly in the water.

[Beam's Reach]

Moondance wrote:

I'm for all 3 feet planted firmly in the water.

I like that!