Mike, No I did not squeeze the primer bulb as I am still a newby when it comes to outboards as my last boat was a 120HP I/O Merc with built in gas tank.
I will try squeezing the bulb. Plus the dealer who installed this motor for the PO suggested listening closely as I turn on the ignition. He says I should hear the fuel pump if it is working.
He told me to pull the three plugs and look at them also and only replace with NJK or I will be sorry.
I hear you about the electrical. I have been fooled more than once with car engines where I thought it was fuel related and was really a electrical problem.
I still don't rule out fuel line connector problems. I am not really sure what the fuel connector coming from my Suzuki engine is. Is it Suzuki specific ? Or is it Evinrude or whatever. I matched it up in the store to be Evinrude but there could be another brand that is real close to being the same but not quite. PLUS !! Now I am even more suspect of my Duratanks that do not have built in vents.
Of course the boat did run decent at the end of last season with Evinrude connectors and Duratanks with no venting in the gas cap and "WITH THE CAP TIGHT".
This weekend I plan on at least taking the tank and connector to a Suzuki dealer in Bayborro NC and having him look at it. I am guessing it is something simple that I am overlooking. KNOCK on "TEAK".
Well if worst comes to worst I will be honing my sailing skills !!
Okay you two cyclers - LET FLY !!!!
-Don B
Need help diagnosing Honda 50 problem
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mike
- Captain
- Posts: 812
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 8:06 pm
- Location: MS Gulf Coast "Wind Dancer" 98 26X
Same here.Don B wrote:Mike, No I did not squeeze the primer bulb as I am still a newby when it comes to outboards as my last boat was a 120HP I/O Merc with built in gas tank.
Is that something that is Suzuki-specific, or for all outboards? I was going to buy Champion plugs, but are NGK's better?He told me to pull the three plugs and look at them also and only replace with NJK or I will be sorry.
Yes, when our engine problems started during our trip, it was nice to still be able to get back to the vicinity of home by sailing (though the winds were quite light).Well if worst comes to worst I will be honing my sailing skills !!
--Mike
NGK SPARK PLUGS
Hi All,
New 26x (<2wks) owner here with Honda 50. Haven't had the boat out yet, but have been lurking on the discussion boards. I have a lot of experience working on motorcycles though.
I won't use anything except Bosch or NGK plugs in any of my vehicles. The Champions seem to work better for a short period of time but quickly deteriorate to sub-nominal operation.
Let me preface any recommendations or troubleshooting with the caveat that I'm not the least bit familiar with outboards, but am going to do some serious research.
Another problem that may, just may be the problem, is a cracked coil. When they heat up they may lose connectivity as they expand. I had this problem in Honda 4 stroke single engine before.
Best of luck in your endeavors and troubleshooting.
Bruce
New 26x (<2wks) owner here with Honda 50. Haven't had the boat out yet, but have been lurking on the discussion boards. I have a lot of experience working on motorcycles though.
I won't use anything except Bosch or NGK plugs in any of my vehicles. The Champions seem to work better for a short period of time but quickly deteriorate to sub-nominal operation.
Let me preface any recommendations or troubleshooting with the caveat that I'm not the least bit familiar with outboards, but am going to do some serious research.
Another problem that may, just may be the problem, is a cracked coil. When they heat up they may lose connectivity as they expand. I had this problem in Honda 4 stroke single engine before.
Best of luck in your endeavors and troubleshooting.
Bruce
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mike
- Captain
- Posts: 812
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 8:06 pm
- Location: MS Gulf Coast "Wind Dancer" 98 26X
Re: NGK SPARK PLUGS
I'm still not as familiar as I should be with the anatomy of my motor... when you say the "coil," do you mean the 3 components the spark plug wires are attached to? Or are you referring to one of the components under the flywheel?sailpsych wrote:Hi All,
Another problem that may, just may be the problem, is a cracked coil. When they heat up they may lose connectivity as they expand. I had this problem in Honda 4 stroke single engine before.
Yesterday evening, I ran the motor in fast idle as I heated up the CDI unit, which did not produce a result. I also tried heating up the 3 things the spark plug wires come from. I'll really get into it tomorrow, however, so any guidance is welcome and appreciated.
--Mike
Hi Mike,
Yes, those would be the coils. Sometimes they develop minor cracks that don't intrude into the performance of an engine until they heat up or the cracks get pretty severe.
Another problem that I recently fixed on one of my motorcycles (4 cylinder) was a vacuum leak. The carburetors were vacuum controlled so that if there was a leak, there would not be enough vaccuum to operate the diaphragm. Given the symptoms of your motor though, I find this a bit unlikely, although you may want to take a look at it.
Also, just check to make sure that nothing is falling over the air intake.
Have you isolated a cylinder that is the culprit?
Bruce
Yes, those would be the coils. Sometimes they develop minor cracks that don't intrude into the performance of an engine until they heat up or the cracks get pretty severe.
Another problem that I recently fixed on one of my motorcycles (4 cylinder) was a vacuum leak. The carburetors were vacuum controlled so that if there was a leak, there would not be enough vaccuum to operate the diaphragm. Given the symptoms of your motor though, I find this a bit unlikely, although you may want to take a look at it.
Also, just check to make sure that nothing is falling over the air intake.
Have you isolated a cylinder that is the culprit?
Bruce
If my engine problems don't prove to be fuel contaminated related or vacumn related I will look into the plugs and wires. I may take the cover off after it is dark and see if there is any tell tale arcing.
Of course as Robert pointed out the factory computer will probably be my next best approach.
Pulling a plug and wire and see if it arcs is another method but not usually recomended for computer controlled engines.
Replace the plugs. Plugs can break down under stress/heat/load but work fine at idle.
A trick the hot rodders use is a bottle of propane with a hose on the end you stick it near suspected leaks and the vacumn of the engine sucks the gas in and you will hear the engine rev up if there is a leak in that area. Never tried this technique it sounds scary.
Float bowl starvation. Under load a carbureted engine can starve for fuel if the float bowl is not filling up from being out of adjustment or plugging.
Loose nuts and bolts holding the carbs tight. I have experienced this.
A loose sparkplug in the chamber. Gasses escape around a loose fitting plug.
The dealer who installed the engine on this boat suggested to me to listen for the fuel pump. If I don't hear it when I turn the ignition on than it could be that the fuel pump is not working. He says rust from water contamination can damage theSuzuki fuel pump and that is why he recommends and external water separator.
-Don B
Of course as Robert pointed out the factory computer will probably be my next best approach.
Pulling a plug and wire and see if it arcs is another method but not usually recomended for computer controlled engines.
Replace the plugs. Plugs can break down under stress/heat/load but work fine at idle.
A trick the hot rodders use is a bottle of propane with a hose on the end you stick it near suspected leaks and the vacumn of the engine sucks the gas in and you will hear the engine rev up if there is a leak in that area. Never tried this technique it sounds scary.
Float bowl starvation. Under load a carbureted engine can starve for fuel if the float bowl is not filling up from being out of adjustment or plugging.
Loose nuts and bolts holding the carbs tight. I have experienced this.
A loose sparkplug in the chamber. Gasses escape around a loose fitting plug.
The dealer who installed the engine on this boat suggested to me to listen for the fuel pump. If I don't hear it when I turn the ignition on than it could be that the fuel pump is not working. He says rust from water contamination can damage theSuzuki fuel pump and that is why he recommends and external water separator.
-Don B
I haven't had mine in the water or started yet so I'm in a learning mode as well. -
mike
- Captain
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- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 8:06 pm
- Location: MS Gulf Coast "Wind Dancer" 98 26X
I took the boat out Sunday to try and get an ohms test on some of the suspect components while the motor was in its misbehaving state. It had been run for about 30 minutes at no-wake speed, then about 30 minutes at around 4000 - 5000 rpms making runs up and down the bayou before the problem started happening, but the poor-running state was fairly short (5-10 seconds). During one of these times, when the situation permitted me being at the mercy of the wind, I shut the motor down, quickly pulled off the cover, and checked the pulser coils and the ignition charge coil. Both read a little high (compared to what the book says, and compared to how they read earlier at the dock with the motor cold), but I think this is normal.
Of course, the problem here is that after plugging things back in, the motor started right up. So, even though it was malfunctioning at the time that I stopped the motor, there's no way of really knowing if it was still in its "failed state" at the time I actually took the readings, as obviously sometime in between the motor dying and me restarting it, whatever component that was causing the problem started working properly again.
It was getting a little late, and satisfied that I had done all I could, I began slowly motoring back home. Hoping to avoid the sheer joy of losing the motor in a semi-crowded marina, I left the motor's cover off (hoping it would help keep it cool), and kept my speed to a minimum. Of course, the problem happened again 10 minutes later at a very inopportune time, and because the throttle was near idle, the motor died. In this particular part of the bayou, the bank was lined with concrete rip-rap, which the wind was blowing me towards. Ouch. Fortunately, I got the motor started again, and in gear, which is not necessarily easy... if the motor is in its malfunctioning state when its started (with some throttle applied, in neutral of course) I cannot get it into gear, as the motor dies when I pull it back to idle to try and get it in gear.
I continued, though I ran at a bit of a faster speed since that would help ensure the motor would remain running if the dreaded problem happened again (which it did, several times). Nearing the marina, I had to slow down, though I kept my hand on the throttle, and had to increase it several times to keep it running when the problem happened. I made it into the slip safely.
I then ran the motor for a few more minutes in the slip, until the problem happened again, and once again took resistance readings on the components I had tested earlier, and had similar results.
With today's experience, I'm fairly certain the problem is not related specifically to one cylinder... the motor ran much better with one of the plug caps removed than it did when the problem was happening out on the water (someone has since told me that it's not good to do this). With this one cylinder intentionally disabled (which, again, I won't do anymore!), the motor would still idle, and still responded to throttle increases... in its malfunctioning state, it would die near idle, and no matter where the throttle was, it would not go past about 2,100 rpms.
So, it's looking more and more like the problem must be a weak and/or erratic spark that affects all cylinders, which seems to implicate the CDI and ignition charging coil as possible culprits, and maybe the pulser coil. I will also try replacing the plugs... it's worth a shot.
Anyway, this at least gives me some info to pass along to the mechanic (I'll be bringing it in Saturday). It takes me about an hour or so (by water) to get to the shop from my home slip, so I'm sure by the time I arrive there, the problem will be in full bloom, or almost ready to be... perhaps I can convince him to come for a quick ride with me to witness it firsthand.
--Mike
Of course, the problem here is that after plugging things back in, the motor started right up. So, even though it was malfunctioning at the time that I stopped the motor, there's no way of really knowing if it was still in its "failed state" at the time I actually took the readings, as obviously sometime in between the motor dying and me restarting it, whatever component that was causing the problem started working properly again.
It was getting a little late, and satisfied that I had done all I could, I began slowly motoring back home. Hoping to avoid the sheer joy of losing the motor in a semi-crowded marina, I left the motor's cover off (hoping it would help keep it cool), and kept my speed to a minimum. Of course, the problem happened again 10 minutes later at a very inopportune time, and because the throttle was near idle, the motor died. In this particular part of the bayou, the bank was lined with concrete rip-rap, which the wind was blowing me towards. Ouch. Fortunately, I got the motor started again, and in gear, which is not necessarily easy... if the motor is in its malfunctioning state when its started (with some throttle applied, in neutral of course) I cannot get it into gear, as the motor dies when I pull it back to idle to try and get it in gear.
I continued, though I ran at a bit of a faster speed since that would help ensure the motor would remain running if the dreaded problem happened again (which it did, several times). Nearing the marina, I had to slow down, though I kept my hand on the throttle, and had to increase it several times to keep it running when the problem happened. I made it into the slip safely.
I then ran the motor for a few more minutes in the slip, until the problem happened again, and once again took resistance readings on the components I had tested earlier, and had similar results.
With today's experience, I'm fairly certain the problem is not related specifically to one cylinder... the motor ran much better with one of the plug caps removed than it did when the problem was happening out on the water (someone has since told me that it's not good to do this). With this one cylinder intentionally disabled (which, again, I won't do anymore!), the motor would still idle, and still responded to throttle increases... in its malfunctioning state, it would die near idle, and no matter where the throttle was, it would not go past about 2,100 rpms.
So, it's looking more and more like the problem must be a weak and/or erratic spark that affects all cylinders, which seems to implicate the CDI and ignition charging coil as possible culprits, and maybe the pulser coil. I will also try replacing the plugs... it's worth a shot.
Anyway, this at least gives me some info to pass along to the mechanic (I'll be bringing it in Saturday). It takes me about an hour or so (by water) to get to the shop from my home slip, so I'm sure by the time I arrive there, the problem will be in full bloom, or almost ready to be... perhaps I can convince him to come for a quick ride with me to witness it firsthand.
--Mike
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mike
- Captain
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- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 8:06 pm
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Here's an update on my motor...
I took the boat to the Honda dealer (by water, not on the trailer) yesterday. My hope was that by the time I got there, the motor would be hot enough to be misbehaving, but that didn't happen. The trip there consisted of about 5 minutes at idle speed, around 30 minutes at high speed, then another 15 minutes at slow speed. When I arrived, I was pleased to learn that the mechanic was going to go out in the boat right then, so that he could observe the problem firsthand and do some diagnosing too. I thought this was a good idea, since the motor was already well warmed up, and it shouldn't have taken too long for the problem to occur.
It took much longer than I thought... about another 40 minutes... for it to happen, though it was coming back to life too quickly for him to find out anything, though I did immediately conclude that it was definitely not a fuel problem, and that it was electrical.
Slowly motoring through no-wake zones, it started happening again, and he was able to do some of the things he wanted to do. First of all, he pulled the #1 plug cap, which caused the motor to die. After we were back up and running, he waited for it to act up again, then pulled the #2, then the #3 wires, which didn't produce any noticeable difference in performance. So, he reached the conclusion that when the problem happens, only the #1 cylinder is firing.
So, he believes it is the CDI unit, and will probably replace it to see if that clears up the problem.
--Mike
I took the boat to the Honda dealer (by water, not on the trailer) yesterday. My hope was that by the time I got there, the motor would be hot enough to be misbehaving, but that didn't happen. The trip there consisted of about 5 minutes at idle speed, around 30 minutes at high speed, then another 15 minutes at slow speed. When I arrived, I was pleased to learn that the mechanic was going to go out in the boat right then, so that he could observe the problem firsthand and do some diagnosing too. I thought this was a good idea, since the motor was already well warmed up, and it shouldn't have taken too long for the problem to occur.
It took much longer than I thought... about another 40 minutes... for it to happen, though it was coming back to life too quickly for him to find out anything, though I did immediately conclude that it was definitely not a fuel problem, and that it was electrical.
Slowly motoring through no-wake zones, it started happening again, and he was able to do some of the things he wanted to do. First of all, he pulled the #1 plug cap, which caused the motor to die. After we were back up and running, he waited for it to act up again, then pulled the #2, then the #3 wires, which didn't produce any noticeable difference in performance. So, he reached the conclusion that when the problem happens, only the #1 cylinder is firing.
So, he believes it is the CDI unit, and will probably replace it to see if that clears up the problem.
--Mike
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Frank C
In the old days it was a Chevy V-8, missing under load or stumble around turns. Rule of thumb was "90% of problems are electrical, 10% fuel." (Of course, w/ carbs, the stumble around turns was usually a fuel problem).mike wrote: . . . It was getting a little late, and satisfied that I had done all I could, I began slowly motoring back home. Hoping to avoid the sheer joy of losing the motor in a semi-crowded marina, I left the motor's cover off (hoping it would help keep it cool), and kept my speed to a minimum. Of course, the problem happened again 10 minutes later at a very inopportune time, . . .
These days, we fight outboard symptoms, with two new complications: first, modern electronics are a mystery, and second, Ya can't walk home! Sorry I have no suggestions, but your story raises those old memories. Then or now, engine problems suck. Good luck w/ the CDI.
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Mark Prouty
- Admiral
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- Location: Madison, WI Former MacGregor 26X Owner
Watching from the sidelines and was just wondering - CDI Unit
Good Luck!The usual Capacitative Discharge Ignition unit is a sealed box of electronics which lies, electrically between the generator and the ignition coils. They seldom go wrong but when they do fail the only remedy is to buy a secondhand unit or a new one.
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26XSunsailrs
- Just Enlisted
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:54 am
Starting simple first
I should have thought of this sooner when I saw your post. I have a Honda 50 and have the throttle mounted vertically on the starboard side of the pedestal. One day I was having some strange engine problems after a day of sailing. I found that one of the electrical connectors that link the throttle control to the rest of the engine was loose.
My wires and connectors hang down close to the deck, and one of my guests must have gotten a foot tangled in them. Since there is that red cutout switch in case of man overboard, any chance that could be loose?
I hope it is as simple at that....... I feel for your frustration and the amount of time you've spent diagnosing the problem already!
Hope to see you cruising uninterrupted on the water soon,
-Steve '99 26X Together
My wires and connectors hang down close to the deck, and one of my guests must have gotten a foot tangled in them. Since there is that red cutout switch in case of man overboard, any chance that could be loose?
I hope it is as simple at that....... I feel for your frustration and the amount of time you've spent diagnosing the problem already!
Hope to see you cruising uninterrupted on the water soon,
-Steve '99 26X Together
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mike
- Captain
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- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 8:06 pm
- Location: MS Gulf Coast "Wind Dancer" 98 26X
Re: Starting simple first
Grrrrrrr... I was hopeful that the dealer would not jerk me around, but I'm having resistance now.
They called me this morning and asked if I could take the boat out for a sea trial. Great! That was fast! When I got there, the mechanic told me he had not replaced the CDI, but instead replaced one of the ignition coils/plug wire/cap assemblies. Huh? He didn't have a CDI in stock, but did have one of these coils, and he thought that it MIGHT fix the problem. It didn't.
After I got back, I asked what the next step was... he said they were going to order 2 more coil assemblies and see if that fixes it. WTF?
I think it's the CDI (mainly a slightly educated guess). The mechanic thinks it's the CDI (determined through the above mentioned procedure, which revealed that 2 of the cylinders are not firing when the problem occurs). But the owner of the shop, for whatever reason, simply cannot comprehend that a CDI could go bad, and is insisting that other stuff be done first. I guess he's trying to stick to the official procedure, but in the process, is ignoring some obvious signs that point to the CDI.
I hate wasting time, and I just wasted half a day. That alone is no big deal, but the fact that I'm going to have to waste ANOTHER half day when they replace the other 2 coils really ticks me off. And yes, I do want to take it out myself, because the problem took an unusually long time to happen today, probably because it was early in the morning and the ambient temperature was low. Had they taken it out, after 45 minutes or so, they would have pronounced the problem solved... I had to stay out for an hour and a half before it happened (I stayed out that long because I was certain that replacing an ignition coil was not going to fix it).
Sorry, I'm just venting. I'm going to call them back later and see if they'll at least get a CDI on order, because I'm 99% sure that replacing the other coils is going to just be another waste of time. The motor has an extended warranty, so perhaps they're just trying to run up the bill as much as possible (again, the official troubleshooting procedure for the CDI is "if you've tried everything else, it's the CDI" ).
--Mike
They called me this morning and asked if I could take the boat out for a sea trial. Great! That was fast! When I got there, the mechanic told me he had not replaced the CDI, but instead replaced one of the ignition coils/plug wire/cap assemblies. Huh? He didn't have a CDI in stock, but did have one of these coils, and he thought that it MIGHT fix the problem. It didn't.
After I got back, I asked what the next step was... he said they were going to order 2 more coil assemblies and see if that fixes it. WTF?
I think it's the CDI (mainly a slightly educated guess). The mechanic thinks it's the CDI (determined through the above mentioned procedure, which revealed that 2 of the cylinders are not firing when the problem occurs). But the owner of the shop, for whatever reason, simply cannot comprehend that a CDI could go bad, and is insisting that other stuff be done first. I guess he's trying to stick to the official procedure, but in the process, is ignoring some obvious signs that point to the CDI.
I hate wasting time, and I just wasted half a day. That alone is no big deal, but the fact that I'm going to have to waste ANOTHER half day when they replace the other 2 coils really ticks me off. And yes, I do want to take it out myself, because the problem took an unusually long time to happen today, probably because it was early in the morning and the ambient temperature was low. Had they taken it out, after 45 minutes or so, they would have pronounced the problem solved... I had to stay out for an hour and a half before it happened (I stayed out that long because I was certain that replacing an ignition coil was not going to fix it).
Sorry, I'm just venting. I'm going to call them back later and see if they'll at least get a CDI on order, because I'm 99% sure that replacing the other coils is going to just be another waste of time. The motor has an extended warranty, so perhaps they're just trying to run up the bill as much as possible (again, the official troubleshooting procedure for the CDI is "if you've tried everything else, it's the CDI" ).
--Mike