Mac 26X Purchase <1998 (Change List)

[Sly]

I'm currently in the market for a used Mac. I've done plenty of research, and feel that the Mac is best suited for my needs.

My wife and I are both newbs when it comes to sailing, so I want to be real cautious when it comes to picking the right Mac. That said, I would like to know if what I've been told by a used Mac seller "holds water." He claims that I'd be better off buying a newer boat because Macs that are 1998 or older require extensive backfitting to make them "better."

Any advice will be greatfully received.

Thanks~ Sly


Mod's Edit: to clarify thread's title ~fc

[kmclemore]

Well, in a way he's right... if you really *need* a boat that's up to current build standards. There were a great many changes made around 1998, and some of them you may want, or maybe not - use the search function, above, to find the list of changes in one or more of the past discussions - it's been talked about here several times. However, IMHO, every model of the Mac has pretty much stood on it's own and been a pretty dang good boat. I think it's more important to look for a boat that's been well cared for.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

I'd disagree. As an owner of a '96 I see very little of any functional difference that makes a post 1998 X substantially different or better than my '96 boat. I have every functional thing on my boat that was on the last X to roll off the line. Are there differences, sure, but they are very evolutionary not revolutionary. The boat as shipped from the factory was and still is very bare. There really aren't a lot of places they could make a huge difference with changes they made. By far in the used market the real differences between boats come in the dealer and owner install systems and equipment being sold with a boat. You would be far better off (and ultimately happier) with a clean, loaded early X boat at a great price than a bare high priced late model X.

It's all very little stuff;

Larger ballast valve to starboard instead of port. Does it fill faster by a minute or two perhaps but maybe not if I also open my bottom valve that the late model boats don't have. Once full is it any different, No. (You do get a bit more water in the larger tank of the later ones for a bit stiffer boat. I notice no difference in the winds we get around here, but maybe in a high wind area this could matter.)

Vent forward instead of at the step. Better for getting all the air out so you don't hear burping sounds, yes, functionally different, no.

Redesigned rudders and brackets. Is the SS stronger than the aluminum, yes but mine have never broken, is the new smaller rudder better than the old large ones, in many cases this has turned out not to be true.

Taller pedestal for the R&P Steering instead of rotary. My UFlex rotary steering seems to be every bit as good. They actually had a lot of problems with the Detmar R&P units when they switched to them. I would be suspect of these units and take a very close look for any corrosion.

The list goes on (actually the list above is about all you will notice without looking at very small details), very small improvements but nothing that makes the later boats substantially better in a way I would say justifies not buying an early model if you find a great deal. In my '96 I have the same hull, same interior (different fabric colors and I actually like the old better), same rig, same sails, etc. I passed on a '99 BWY had on the lot at the same time because the '96 was a much better deal with far better equipment. This decision proved to be a good one over the last 6 years.

The differences in the generations of the X are really quite small. Now once you get to the M you are getting a different boat. Not only that but there are substantial differences in the early M interior design to the current model M interior design.

[kevperro]

Look for one in good shape with the features you want, at a good price and buy it. There isn't anything that you cannot modify and upgrade if the original price is right.

I just bought a 1989 and I'm spending more than the purchase price of the boat to fix and upgrade. That is because I bought it bare bones at a VERY low price. For me outfitting the boat to my taste and desire is a large part of fun. Just budget for it if you buy an older boat. If you don't want to monkey around just look for one that is in good shape with all the features you want.

Spend some time reading here to learn as much as you can. It will pay back quickly when you buy your boat.

[kmclemore]

I'd disagree.

You disagree with *what*, Duane? I agree with you!

I said...

Well, in a way he's right... if you really *need* a boat that's up to current build standards. (In other words, if you're really anal about things and need to have the latest and greatest of everything) There were a great many changes made around 1998, and some of them you may want, or maybe not - use the search function, above, to find the list of changes in one or more of the past discussions - it's been talked about here several times. However, IMHO, every model of the Mac has pretty much stood on it's own and been a pretty dang good boat. I think it's more important to look for a boat that's been well cared for.

[Frank C]

Welcome Sly. Hope you don't mind that I've edited the title of your thread.

Your topic always raises many opinions, but it's basically a matter of choosing based upon your individual priorities. In MY opinion, the stainless rudder brackets are the most significant change differentiating the earlier boats, but Duane's never had any problem with his aluminum brackets from '96. I WOULD suggest that you might examine closely the rudder brackets of any boat, looking especially for cracks or obvious distortion.

I think the outboard is the single most important option on any 26X "powersailer." If you're not shopping for that "service model" ignore what follows. Opinions surely vary, but I'd be most likely to choose the boat with a late-model EFI outboard regardless of the hull's age.

I'd also discount sharply any older carbureted outboards ... and discount any carbureted 2-stroke to a value of zero (strictly MY OWN "opinion"). I'd rather let the PO keep his older outboard, and start my ownership by investing in a modern outboard. Yes, a brand new outboard adds $6k to $8k to my cost, but that's what truly equalizes the values of a '96 X with a ten-year newer 26M. Many guys here are interested in upgrading to even bigger outboards, so the Suzuki 50 might be available "used" for only $2k.
You can also find dealers who offer great discounts on new outboards that are just "last year's model."

Searching note:
I also suggest that you search on the terms Change List and be sure to click the "all terms" button. Then scan that listing for threads with titles that relate to your need. )ur Search function cannot search for a phrase, only for the individual words. Including quotes around "Change List" won't improve this. Search will capture those threads with the phrase, but also finds all other threads with both of those words. Scanning the list for appropriate titles, you'll easily find a handful on this Purchase topic - lots of reading out there!

[beene]

OK

I'm confused.

It sounds to me like you are both on the same page.

G

[kmclemore]

I couldn't find the change list here on the site - maybe it was in a pub item and it's rolled off. In any event, here are a couple that might help.

Heath, maybe we should post either or both of these as a sticky?

Factory changes to MacGregor 26X since introduction in late 1995

2001-2002 as of December 2001

* Removed forward Red/Green bow light from deck and relocated to bow pulpit
* Removed Stern light from transom and area and relocated to port stern rail
* Interior hatch and storage covers now made from non-warping high density polyethylene
* Trailer tires are Radial instead of bias belted

2000 Model - August 1999

* Stainless cleats on bow and stern (Herreshof design) replace nylon cleats
* New electrical panel with 4 switches (one spare for accessories)-Mounted on port side, in instrument box.
* Black anodized aluminum hatch slides and companion slides replaced with custom white high-density polyethylene (HDPE) .
* New locations for warning information on port side of pedestal
* New location under forward Vee-berth for air vent, with splash guard
* New mounting for trailer clearance lights
* New embossment in interior liner for Stainless stanchion aft of galley
* Higher capacity battery for electrical system
* Larger knobs for securing table in upright position
* Removal of the "no longer necessary" aft vent housing under the companionway. Factory now provides a 2 step stainless ladder with wooden treads. Ladder pivots up for easier access to aft berth
* New higher fiberglass pedestal housing. Accomodates rack type steering. Higher pedestal allows for mounting of dealer optional instrumentation. New mainsheet fixing hardware on pedestal
* Double safety chains on trailer
* Rubber boot on aft end of steering cable
* New cushion colors
* New method of using fiberglass "beams" to increase deck ridigity and lower weight

Running changes during the 1998 model year

* Re-located mast carrier from transom to top of pedestal
* Larger pedestal with removable lexan side panels
* Replaced spreader sockets with fixed type
* Changed aspect ratio (shape) of centerboard and rudders
* Changed rudder brackets from black cast aluminum to stainless steel
* Changed steering geometry and location of steering cable
* Shortened steering cable by 4 feet
* Changed mounting for backrest on aft dinette seat
* Relocated longitudinal axle position on trailer

For posterity, I am writing two posts on this subject. This one was originally by Frank w/ "Chamelea" on SF Bay Date: 11/20/03 (old board)

A boat shopper asked about the 26X genesis, but that thread became "vectored" - here's a summary. The model 2000 included everything on the factory's upgrade list, and even some '98 models had significant changes. Macgregor's "improvements" page was written in November 1999 as a summary of the factory's recent running changes, the word "recent" being a little fuzzy. Keep in mind that the Nov '99 upgrade list was just beyond the 99 model year (June 30). Also, since the factory is slightly tech-averse, one can also surmise that they were "late in publishing the list. My boat is the first model 2000 (MACX3067G900 July 1999), and it has all of the changes they listed.

Significant changes were ballast vent forward, foam-cored deck structure and rack steering, which are impossible or expensive for later upgrading. Some feel that the ballast tank was repositioned more forward, too, but I recall the evidence was ambiguous. Minor factory changes (easy owner upgrades) included stainless cheats, aft-mounted switch panel, 225 tires, galvanized brakes, companionway ladder, etc. (Sorry if memory has faded, but somebody must still have a copy of that list)?

Since they were "running" changes, nearly all were implemented during the '99 model year. At one time with help of the owner group, I had created a list of hull numbers, with changes present or absent... sadly long-lost in a digital memory crash. But this informal canvassing (here and on the Sailnet list) determined that even the hulls built after March 1998 (mid-year '98 models) had most of the factory upgrades.

Stainless rudder brackets were implemented earlier than the rack mechanism, so you might find a boat with newer rudders but older Morse steering gear. One running change that caused some confusion among '98 to '99 hulls... after molding the forward ballast vent, many boats still included the companionway step mold, even though the vent was no longer located there.

The most frequently reported problems are easy to assess... first, the rudder brackets, and second, the steering gear. Finally, also keep in mind that time has proven all the 26Xs very durable, e.g. I've not heard of anybody falling thru a balsa-cored deck! If you like the layout of the 26X, I think the outboard, owner improvements and the general condition deserve most of a buyer's focus. Hope the organic recall helps.

==========================================================
This is from the MacGregor website - dated November 20, 1999

We have made some significant improvements in the 26 over last few months.

The ladder hinges up and out of the way for easy access to the rear berth. Eliminating the bump in the liner allowed us to increase the size of the rear berth.

WATER TANK VENT. The vent has been moved from under the step. This has some big advantages: (1) A ring is bonded to the water tank top and surrounds the vent hole. It acts as a dam, trapping water that slops out the hole. A similar dam could not be placed on the vent under the step without making the step unreasonably high. (2) On a steep ramp, the old location occasionally let water spill into the boat when the vent was removed. This won't happen with the forward vent. (3) The tank fills a bit faster. (4) There is no longer an air bubble that allows the water in the tank to make glurping noises when the boat is bouncing around at a mooring. (5) It is slightly easier to get at the vent in its new location. You no longer have to fool around with the step hold down bolts. This also makes it less likely you will forget to secure the step and invite a fall. However, you do have to lift the bunk hatch to see the vent hole.

STEERING. The cable and drum steering has been replaced with a very strong rack and pinion system (with a safe working load at the tiller of 2000 pounds, as opposed to the old system with a safe working load of 300 pounds.) These new units are extremely strong and durable. They are easier to install and service, and offer much smoother steering. We have raised the height of the pedestal to take the longer rack. The new units are long and thin, and take up a lot less room inside of the pedestal.

NEW HATCH RAILS We have replaced the aluminum sliding and vertical hatch rails with 3/8" thick white polypropylene rails. These rails have been used by Schock Boats for some time with great success. Unlike the aluminum rails, they don't change color with time. They create less friction when sliding the hatch, and look a lot better. There is no more electrolysis between the stainless bolts and the aluminum in the rail. They have nice routed edges, and are polished to a gloss surface that matches the gloss on the rest of the deck.

STRONGER TABLE WITH NEW FASTENERS. The table has been beefed up and now feels as solid as a rock, in either the up or down position. We have replaced the stainless wing bolts with black molded knobs with generous diameters. They are easier to secure, and look a lot less Mickey mouse.

NEW DECK STRUCTURE. For quite a few months, we have been building decks with an entirely new layup system. Much of the balsa wood has been replaced with a system of molded beams that make the deck liner a functional part of the deck structure.

We make the layup of the initial deck skins in the normal manner. Then, instead of balsa core, we lay in 1" * 1" flexible and spongy foam beams on 4 to 6" centers. These beams are then covered with 1 or 2 layers of 1.5 oz mat. Each layer of mat overlaps the mat on the adjacent beams. Before these layers cure, the liner is pressed into the molded deck. The liner compresses the foam and forces a good bond between the wet mat and the liner. The liner forms the inner skin of the deck structure. The results are quite spectacular. This system has some big improvements. Balsa created some problems. It tends to rot if water gets to it, and it was not always possible to assure that the balsa bonded solidly to the outer skin of the deck. The result was soft spots. No more. The foam can't rot, but it really doesn't matter. It is there only to create a shape for the fiberglass covering and the pressure needed to assure a good bond.

Until we made this change, the deck liners offered virtually no structural support for the deck. Now the decks are a lot stiffer, with no soft spots. They are also a lot lighter, which improves the boat's inherent stability, trailerability and speed.

We are getting a lot of positive feedback from customers and dealers on how much stiffer the decks feel under foot.

TRAILER BRAKES. We have switched to trailer brakes that have stainless steel internal structures to keep corrosion under control. They are a major improvement, and should have greatly extended life.

FUEL TANK STORAGE AREA. When you looked at the roof of the fuel tank boxes, the underside of the seat layup was exposed, and was not too attractive. We have covered this area with a smooth white gel coat panel, and it really looks finished.

NEW CLEATS. The plastic mooring cleats have been replaced with really good looking highly polished stainless steel cleats. Each cleat has four 1/4" bolts rather than two, so they are a lot stronger.

SWITCH PANELS We moved the switch panel to the deck liner just inside the cabin entry. To flip on the lights, you can just reach around from the cockpit.

FUSES We are now using 5 amps everywhere in the system. We had experienced problems with lower amperage fuses blowing prematurely.

CENTERBOARD CABLES. We have replaced the wire cables with a coated, abrasion resistant 5/16" line. This should eliminate all problems with electrolysis and corrosion. It is also a lot easier for the owner to change if the hoisting system suffers wear or damage. To reduce wear, we are carefully rounding the edges of the rope hole and the hole in the centerboard trunk thru which the line passes. The mast step has been redesigned to allow a larger hole for the centerboard line, and the bearing has been relocated to assure that the line passes straight down the hole, rather than hitting the sides.

DRAIN HOLE IN THE LINER. Directly below the hatch entrance, we are now drilling a 1/2" hole to allow excessive bilge water to move out onto the floor of the liner. This may sound pretty stupid at first, but there is a really god reason for making the change. Without this hole, it is possible for the boat to collect a really large, stability threatening load of bilge water. Since the liner floor area (the area that is carpeted) was essentially a water tight tub, the skipper would have no way of knowing that he had a big load of bilge water until the water had reached the level of the cutout in the face of the galley. It is true that the skipper should look in a hatch occasionally and check for bilge water, but I prefer a more obvious warning. When he steps in the cabin and ends up with water up to his ankles, he will get the message. I recommend that all owners of older boats make a similar hole. (Be really careful not to drill into the bump on the water tank found on the older boats.) You can see the hole location in the ladder photos that appeared earlier. The hole is high enough that a limited amount of bilge water will not dribble out onto the carpet.

ACCESS TO FOREDECK HARDWARE. In the past, if you wanted to add or remove hardware form the foredeck, you had to remove the panel on the underside of the front foam box and remove the foam. We have shortened the foam box, so you can now lay on the front bunk and reach up at the forward edge of the foam box and get to the nuts and bolts that hold the hardware. The access panel is no longer there.

[kmclemore]

Ahh.. I've been told off-list that my searching was bogus!

It seems that if you search using the words Change List (selecting "all terms" button) you'll find lots of links, and several have the "change list" in the title.

(Thanks, Frank!!)

[Sly]

Thanks to all who have responded. The advice to look at the rudders/bracket when viewing a prospective purchase I consider invaluable - thanks!

I certainly expect to, nay, look forward to doing upgrades/mods to suit our personal taste. That seems to be a time honored endeavor that gives one a sense of independent fortitude and stimulates individual creativity. Hopefully, after I have done more reading of these threads, and checked the archives, I'll be more equipped to make an informed purchase.

I'll keep ya'll posted (no pun intended) on my progress...

Thanks again~ Sly

[Scott]

I have a 97 X and the only thing I'd like different or 2 things are: the easier entrance to the rear berth of the M, (not an issue if you only sleep 2 or dont sleep on your boat) and I would love a sliding galley.

Other than that I have had many many years of faultless service from my boat and very few of the upgrades to my boat have been performance or stability related. Most are creature comfort items.

One item with buying an older boat is that if the prior owner didnt maintain it you will have some work ahead of you.

[kmclemore]

Yeah, I'm with you, Scott - I'd love to get rid of that hump below the companionway... I can't count the amount of times I've gotten jabbed by that stinkin' screw that sticks up to secure the step!

Other than that, I'm a happy camper. As for the galley, I kinda like it where it is - if I had a slider I don't think I'd actually slide it very often anyway. Besides, I don't know how I would have installed my fridge in the sliding galley.

[Moe]

Yeah, I'm with you, Scott - I'd love to get rid of that hump below the companionway... I can't count the amount of times I've gotten jabbed by that stinkin' screw that sticks up to secure the step!

It is much easier to get in the aft berth in later Xs without that hump. I found it easy, and if I can fit in there, anyone can. Don't think I could've with the hump of earlier models. We preferred to sleep in the v-berth, looking up at the stars, while the aft berth was essentially a pickup truck bed filled with big Rubbermaid tubs of "stuff."

Other than that, I'm a happy camper. As for the galley, I kinda like it where it is - if I had a slider I don't think I'd actually slide it very often anyway. Besides, I don't know how I would have installed my fridge in the sliding galley.

Agreed. One of the best mods we made was Duane's ice cube cooler tied down on the aft galley seat. Having a second cooler dedicated to drinks really made them handy and helped the ice in the much less frequently accessed food cooler last longer.



Had we kept the boat for longer trips, I'd have also done Frank C's 70 qt cooler in the seat mod.

[Divecoz]

Why I bought the 05M:
I liked the looks of the inside.
I wanted new as it will be the only sail boat of size I ever buy.( I am 55+)
The rest is. . . . . .ga-bu -gots
Yes the galley slides and when I show someone who hasn't seen it before I move a couple cushions and show them how it slides they say COOL and then it goes RIGHT back to the way we ALWAYS keep it.
Rotating Mast . is that what allows me to sail with just the Main???
X's sail with just one sail as I understand .
There are lots of differences between these boats but nothing MAJOR that I am aware of . Its all personal likes dislikes and you will learn to love like or deal with every single issue. Notice I never said hate because you wont.
IMHO if your young and on any kind of a budget? Get a nice used boat.
Make sure you have a tow vehicle if you plan to tow it.
I will be towing mine with an Explorer Sport Monday morning. I will have added my rear air bags by then. It Is Not The Tow Vehicle of choice believe me !
Sailing and kids:
Cat's Daughters seem to love to sail, and Kevin's boys seem to love to sail
two of my grand kids love to be out under sail. Zack the 12 year old's Mom and Dad own a 70 mph ski boat and though he loves to ski and tube , he LOVES to sail and then . . . sleep over on the boat.
Other side of the coin. Duane's kids no-longer like to sail and Mark who had a 90 hp on the back. . . . .sold it as it was time to move on.
I have $30K in my boat and she's all but done for big $$ investments.
But if you can find one and only tie up say $15K and she needs to sit a few years down the road till the interest peaks again ???
I hope most of this made sense.
ON EDIT: Moe shows some good pic's above. But again nothing major. We have a slip we will always have a slip and we have a fridge that is plugged in and we don't need coolers. It stays very cold for the 3 to 6 hours when we are out. We do keep a small drink cooler for just drinks while out sailing. It holds two 6 packs of pop and a half dozen water bottles and ice. If I ever actually "make the chance" to do a long term sail, I will them address the need for coolers or just get a Honda 2000 gen-set and a converter??? Who knows? I don't need it yet, So I deal with it when I need it. Its like anchors. I have two a Claw and a Danforth. Most say not near enough chain and maybe not enough rope/rode. Used . . . , One of them Once! It was fine. My sailing doesn't require a lot of use of anchors and chain and rode etc.

[Moe]

What Richard (divecoz) says is true. TRY to make sure you're getting the right boat for your needs. We're not go-fast people. We bought the X, DESPITE the big 50HP outboard, for its excellent RV layout and huge amount of storage for longer trips, such as 2 or more weeks in the North Channel, or a trip to Bimini or the Dry Tortugas.

We chose the X for its standing headroom over MacGregor's pure, better sailing sailboats, the 26S and 26D, even though we knew we'd seldom if ever use the expensive 50HP. And in doing so, we probably spent double or more what a well-equipped one of those older 26 Classics would've cost, and they'd also have filled the long-trip requirement. In the end, we found we spent most of our time in the cockpit, even under a boom tent in the rain, and the standing headroom of the powersailor was much less important to us than we thought it would be.

But our reality is that my job really doesn't accomodate weeks of vacation, especially in the summer. All we need is a weekender. So like Mark Prouty, we sold the powersailor. After writing off some to a great summer with it, we had about 2/3 of what we had invested in it left over after buying and equipping a smaller pure sailboat. I don't regret buying the X. It gave us some priceless memories and the steering wheel with linked outboard made it easier for Barb to learn to pilot. But I missed a tiller. The slip and maintenance costs for the smaller boat are also much lower.

I said TRY to choose the right boat (and outboard). That's easier said than done. And why am I still here on the MacGregor forum? Because as a friend says, "The best ships are friendships" and there are a lot of good people here I'd miss.

--
Moe