I went out sailing last Friday on a very windy day. 30-35 knots consistent wind with gusts in the mid 40s. I was actually doing quite well for a while. Had the main double reefed and the jib reefed half way. I was managing 6 knots with heeling around 30 degrees on average. Suddenly, I hear a clunking sound behind the transom. I turn around and see my starboard rudder being pulled behind the boat by its lines, hitting the stern & engine. I quickly lowered sails and pulled the rudder into the cockpit. I was having too much fun to quit, especially since Treasure Isle marine was just 10 minutes away under motor. I tied off at a dock and reinstalled the rudder by replacing the bolt. After a bite of lunch and a couple of cold ones, I was back out in the nasty stuff. After rounding Angel Island, I was now heading back, finding myself on a broad reach with big quartering seas. Then, I broached. (More on this in a separate post “Broaching”) Halfway through the broach, I hear the same clunk, only this time on my port side. “You have to be kidding me!” I thought. Two bolt failures in one day? Again I dropped sails and pulled in the injured rudder. Surprise Surprise Surprise! Happy Happy Birthday! The bolt didn’t pop out this time. The rudder actually snapped off, right below the bracket. Well, my sailing day was over. I hauled in the dead rudder and slowly motored back to the marine with my McTail between my legs.
For those who don’t know, I had IDASailor Marine build me larger rudders. Well, I guess they’re too large. Joel was really good about the whole thing and will be replacing both rudders, but not the same size. I will keep the wider cord (12” vs 10” stock) but will not be 54” long, probably 48” (stock is 45”) I guess the loads are too great for the extra length. Kids, don’t try this at home.
Leon
Mod's edit: To clarify title ~fc
Rudders past limits: Snap! Pop!
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baldbaby2000
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Leon,
Thanks relaying this. I too was worried when I saw your subject line. I would be glad to know that the rudders would break before the bracket. This says that the brackets are pretty strong. I assume you'll be getting the standard size IDA rudders like I have. Looking at mine I couldn't imagine them breaking but now I wonder.
I'm impressed at what you sail your boat in. Good job!
Daniel
Thanks relaying this. I too was worried when I saw your subject line. I would be glad to know that the rudders would break before the bracket. This says that the brackets are pretty strong. I assume you'll be getting the standard size IDA rudders like I have. Looking at mine I couldn't imagine them breaking but now I wonder.
I'm impressed at what you sail your boat in. Good job!
Daniel
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delevi
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Sorry, I should have considered the subject line... sure didn't mean to imply dismasting. Thanks for all your concerns.
As for conditions, I take what I can get. Call me crazy. Despite the fact that I broke so many things on my Mac, I just feel like it's a really safe boat. If the big yachts can be out in this stuff, I'll be right out there with them.... or until the next time something breaks.
Leon
Well, the bracket on the rudder that broke was badly bent out of shape. When I replaced the rudders with the stock ones, I had to use vice clams and big adjustable wrench for leverage to bend it back into shape. It is still far from perfect but should get me by until my replacement IDA rudders arrive. I already ordered a new bracket. The replacement rudders will be close to the ones you have, but with a 12" cord. I believe yours are 10.5" The extra length with leverage and high loads can cause failure to the weakst part of the rudder, whcih is right below the bracket. Joel actually cautioned me about this. Man knows his rudders.BB wrote:I would be glad to know that the rudders would break before the bracket. This says that the brackets are pretty strong. I assume you'll be getting the standard size IDA rudders like I have. Looking at mine I couldn't imagine them breaking but now I wonder.
I'm impressed at what you sail your boat in. Good job!
As for conditions, I take what I can get. Call me crazy. Despite the fact that I broke so many things on my Mac, I just feel like it's a really safe boat. If the big yachts can be out in this stuff, I'll be right out there with them.... or until the next time something breaks.
Leon
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Frank C
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pokerrick1
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I sent both rudders back to Joel and installed Roger's rudders. Will be a nice comparison.-
baldbaby2000
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Lease
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The rudders shouldn't break, but Delevi is using the modified IDA rudders. That doesn't excuse the originals though. I personally don't believe that the standard rudders losing grip is a satisfactory failsafe.
A few words on technique however:
On a reach when the boat is really powered up, there is a lot of pressure on the rudder(s) of any sailboat. Things that can mittigate the pressure are:
- Weight on the rail (as much as you have available)
- Angle the board back a lot. This can bring its own problems sometimes as it can cause the board to break if there is too much hanging out there. The boat will slide a bit, but that is better than rounding up.
- Use a traveller. I have a bridle traveller set up for non-cruising and the ability to open up the angle of attack in circumstances such as those described will help a lot. Also, get big handfulls of outhaul, cunningham, and vang. Get that sail flat as you can.
- Learn to anticipate. First rule when going down wind in big breezes is 'keep the boat under the sails'. When you feel a gust starting, steer away hard. You can come back up to your course when it eases.
- If it's a tight, beam, or a broad reach, keep the mainsheet in your hand and practice controlled easing. Trying to hold the boat on the rudders in a big gust with the main cleated is asking for trouble.
If it's a three quarter run, and you have done all the stuff above (except mainsheet, which will be all the way out anyway), and you are still getting knocked down, it is definitely past time to reduce sail.
A few words on technique however:
On a reach when the boat is really powered up, there is a lot of pressure on the rudder(s) of any sailboat. Things that can mittigate the pressure are:
- Weight on the rail (as much as you have available)
- Angle the board back a lot. This can bring its own problems sometimes as it can cause the board to break if there is too much hanging out there. The boat will slide a bit, but that is better than rounding up.
- Use a traveller. I have a bridle traveller set up for non-cruising and the ability to open up the angle of attack in circumstances such as those described will help a lot. Also, get big handfulls of outhaul, cunningham, and vang. Get that sail flat as you can.
- Learn to anticipate. First rule when going down wind in big breezes is 'keep the boat under the sails'. When you feel a gust starting, steer away hard. You can come back up to your course when it eases.
- If it's a tight, beam, or a broad reach, keep the mainsheet in your hand and practice controlled easing. Trying to hold the boat on the rudders in a big gust with the main cleated is asking for trouble.
If it's a three quarter run, and you have done all the stuff above (except mainsheet, which will be all the way out anyway), and you are still getting knocked down, it is definitely past time to reduce sail.
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baldbaby2000
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Yes, I've found this to help. If one waits too long it's too late. I think boat heel is the real enemy here. As the boat heels; weather helm increases dramatically.- Learn to anticipate. First rule when going down wind in big breezes is 'keep the boat under the sails'. When you feel a gust starting, steer away hard. You can come back up to your course when it eases.
Roger probably did like most smart business owners, make it as foolproof as possible. Better to have an undersized rudder that suffers a little on performance than one that breaks due to large surface area/loads.
The loads these things see is exponential with increasing conditions. I just bought a IDA rudder for my 26D. I'll be carrying the stock unit as a backup because I've seen too many pictures of broken rudders. Joel seems to take care of these when it happens but that won't help you when your out on the water without a rudder.
The loads these things see is exponential with increasing conditions. I just bought a IDA rudder for my 26D. I'll be carrying the stock unit as a backup because I've seen too many pictures of broken rudders. Joel seems to take care of these when it happens but that won't help you when your out on the water without a rudder.
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Frank C
Rudder failure is NOT at all common on Macs -- it's not true for either the X or the M, not in the least. Failure of the pre '98 aluminum rudder brackets was more common, but Roger then designed the stainless brackets. I don't recall ever reading of a failed stainless bracket. The only broken fiberglass rudders, IIRC, were dragged across sand, submerged trees or rocks.
STEERING FAILURE is what one more frequently reads of, mainly due to the owner's failure to maintain the cable system. The earliest cable steering systems were undersized .... but cured with Roger's '98 upgrade to the rack & pinion system. Beyond that, when preventative maintenance is not followed, the cable systems are prone to corrosion failure at the transom end. That's only a design failure if one jumps to a conclusion that the 26X's fully-open aft deck is deficient -- an illogical assertion. My cable system has worked flawlessly since August '99, providing 7+ years of smooth, finger-tip control of the entire linkage, with outboard attached.
I'm now noticing some 'play' at the steering wheel, so I'll be replacing the entire cable system this season, simply as a preventative measure. However, before spending money and effort to remove 'play' from the 'linkage system' ... stand at the helm and watch closely. All of my slack is occurring in the steering-head and cable system. As soon as my cable-end moves, my rudders move almost immediately.
Finally, the IDA-rudders are made of solid high-density PE, which makes them brittle at their design extremes. I'm considering an upgrade to IDA's rudders for our constant heavy conditions (more fore-aft width), but I'll surely also keep a fiberglass spare in the way-back.
Leon's stainless bracket failure, clamped to an oversized IDA rudder, in 40 knot gusts, can hardly be blamed on Macgregor. Let's not exaggerate claims that the Mac rudders are inadequate, unless specific citations are available ... I contend those citations are imaginary.
STEERING FAILURE is what one more frequently reads of, mainly due to the owner's failure to maintain the cable system. The earliest cable steering systems were undersized .... but cured with Roger's '98 upgrade to the rack & pinion system. Beyond that, when preventative maintenance is not followed, the cable systems are prone to corrosion failure at the transom end. That's only a design failure if one jumps to a conclusion that the 26X's fully-open aft deck is deficient -- an illogical assertion. My cable system has worked flawlessly since August '99, providing 7+ years of smooth, finger-tip control of the entire linkage, with outboard attached.
I'm now noticing some 'play' at the steering wheel, so I'll be replacing the entire cable system this season, simply as a preventative measure. However, before spending money and effort to remove 'play' from the 'linkage system' ... stand at the helm and watch closely. All of my slack is occurring in the steering-head and cable system. As soon as my cable-end moves, my rudders move almost immediately.
Finally, the IDA-rudders are made of solid high-density PE, which makes them brittle at their design extremes. I'm considering an upgrade to IDA's rudders for our constant heavy conditions (more fore-aft width), but I'll surely also keep a fiberglass spare in the way-back.
Leon's stainless bracket failure, clamped to an oversized IDA rudder, in 40 knot gusts, can hardly be blamed on Macgregor. Let's not exaggerate claims that the Mac rudders are inadequate, unless specific citations are available ... I contend those citations are imaginary.
Last edited by Frank C on Mon May 21, 2007 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Catigale
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35 knots is a lot of wind for a Mac - the people who can handle the boat in these conditions under sail have a lot of experience which can mitigate the light build and light duty hardware on a Mac imho.
Ive had a Cat 36 out in 35 knots on San Fran bay, and I would say the skill required to drive this rig in these conditions is minimal (I know, since thats a fair assesment of my skill level...) 20,000# of displacement has a way of forgiving helm errors.
Ive had a Cat 36 out in 35 knots on San Fran bay, and I would say the skill required to drive this rig in these conditions is minimal (I know, since thats a fair assesment of my skill level...) 20,000# of displacement has a way of forgiving helm errors.
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delevi
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True Steph. Any substantial sailing experience I have spans the length of my Mac ownership. Granted, I had to learn in challenging sailing waters and I go out every chance I get, average once per week, but I still make plenty of mistakes. Not sure how that excuses Roger from building what he calls a "yacht" which can't handle a big breeze.
Frank C wrote
Leon
Frank C wrote
Frank, actually the handheld wind gauge showed well over 40 on some of these gusts. Didn't have much time to look closely since I was single-handing and was a bit busy trying to keep the boat on her feet. I do disagree somewhat with your statement, however. Granted, my rudders exceeded factory specs, thus their failure and that of the bracket can't be put solely on Roger's design. Also granted that the actual steering system/cable feels adequately strong. That being said, I don't think Roger is excused here in making a boat with inadequate rudders. Yes, absolutely inadequate in heavy air. You know that as well as I do. I only put on bigger ones because Roger's weren't doing the job. The whole steering system is also quite sloppy and not precise, as many have concurred. This experience has me really worked up. Perhaps my expectations are too high, considering the price point of the Mac. Regardless, I'm strongly considering trading into a larger boat which can handle heavy air and big seas i.e. the Corsair 31 TriLeon's stainless bracket failure, clamped to an oversized IDA rudder, in 40 knot gusts, can hardly be blamed on Macgregor. Let's not exaggerate claims that the Mac rudders are inadequate, unless specific citations are available ... I contend those citations are imaginary.
Leon