Knock down

[Landlocked]

I am getting closer to getting a . I have a two questions that I would like some feed back on.

#1. How often do knock downs occur? What where the circumstances?

#2. How durable is the daggerboard? I will do alot of my sailing in Galveston Bay area, which has a lot of shallow area and crab traps.

Thanks,

Rodney

[Divecoz]

3 years Sailing Lake Michigan most often the smallest and the last sailboat to return. Never a knock down.
D.B.??? I'm in deep water But Eric 3 and others will answer you on that one.
Some X's and all M's have D.B.'s

[eric3a]

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[waternwaves]

"If you don't and keep ballast in under sail as you're supposed to I doubt you will have severe knock down."

Lets address this carefully........

Does cockpit empty, feet in the water, holding 1 hand on the sternrail and 1 hand on the safety line , top of the mast in the water count?

given a large enough breaker, enough wind, and confused seas ... It will go over like any other boat.

And you will learn when you get back in the cabin..... that you are not neat enough. I used to use a tether to the pedestal ... Now I use webbing to more than one stanchion.........

You cannot always see it coming, you cannot always hear or differentiate the sound of a rogue during a storm ..... but you will recognize the elevator up/down feeling ....

Personally, I would rather endure what I did...twice..... being pushed over....... than the stories I have heard and damage I have seen on boats that have been smashed falling in a chain of breakers.......

If you keep the companionway shut she wont ship water.......
But if that sail had been up....... and filled with spray water.... I think righting would have been a long time coming.

if that wave breaks on you..... It is much worse than the wave breaking underyou.... Mad Mike probably has endured as many of these as anyone...

but the probability of being smashed offshore in the trough is insignificant to the probaility of getting pushed over and knocked down. Unless of course you can see surfboards around you like the youtube vid we saw on here last week.

[eric3a]

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[DAVEWVU86]

I don't think you really need to worry about a knock down, if you reef the sails and keep the balast full she's pretty stable. That being said, should you be knocked down the video's say she'll bounce right back up...it's hard to picture that in 6' + breaking seas. If you encounter incredibly rough seas the best thing I've found is to drop the sails and power home at a low speed of 5-8 knots to ride with the waves rather then against or trying to over take them.

Keep in mind I've been sailing for about half of my short 25 year life...but new to captaining my own boat and have only had my Mac in my grubby paws for about 3 months now.

You had 2 questions/points...but I'm half drunk and ran for a beer in the middle of replying...we'll see if I have any more thoughts in a moment....

[DAVEWVU86]

the dagger board...well I've gone over some sand bars...with the board a little too low. It was probably by just a couple inches, just enough to feel the slow down when sailing. Oh, and the first day home while washing/waxing my buddy released the board allowing it to slam home on the trailer. No damage to be seen. It's pretty sturdy as best I can tell. But, it's still just fiberglass and gelcoat.

Lastly, get an M. The only way I would have bought another boat is if I had more money....buy a true power boat like a nice 25' walk around and a pretty beneteau for cruising. I'd definately suggest getting an upgraded motor. I have a 50hp suzuki and it's slow. I didn't get to go for a sea trial and was under the impression that my boat would hit that nice 20mph mark with ease. Well with just myself, no gear, and no crew I've only seen 16.5kts. Get a 75 or 90hp. I bought my boat used. Had I bought it new and gone for a test drive with the option to choose a different power plant I'd have opted for a larger motor.

[kziadie]

I havent had the pleasure of a knockdown so I cant comment on that... that is more of a testament of reefing early and using common sense than it is a testament of my sailing skills. As far as the daggerboard is concerned I have found it will take any reasonable abuse at sailing speeds. If you are in an area with a lot of rocky bottoms or shallow reefs that might be a problem, but soft and sandy bottoms are OK.

Kelly

[eric3a]

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[kziadie]

Of course the funny part is that I would put a lot more effort in a sailing mod that gains fractions of knot extra speed... not for the speed of getting there, but for the pleasure of the journey. I guess the pleasure of the journey at WOT is not something I get.

I completely agree. With my Honda and a heavily loaded M I top out at 12 knots and once I accepted the fact that I would not be waterskiing I am quite happy with it. Other than running from weather, my only other use for the engine is when I am trying to traverse a long leg, say 35 miles or more in a day that would be difficult under sail alone. Even though the boat is not fast, I know its performance so it is easy to calculate the time when it is necessary to douse the sails and crank the engine to get where I want to be when I want to be there.

Kelly

[James V]

I have ran mine in the mud and sand many times before I got my Chart plotter. No real damage done. A replacement is less than $ 400, rudders are less. Leaving it down and putting it on the trailer is something else. Just do not deploy the daggerboard all the way down. Take a look at the mods for the rudders with some sort of elastic cord.

Knockdown, The boat is undermasted so a Knockdown will not likely happen unless you are pushing it around the afternoon thunder clouds.

You need a way to take down the sail fast, Sail slugs, sail caddy for the main. Jib down haul or fuller for the Genoa. All lines run aft. Does not take long after practice. You can usually see the gust comming with new ripples in the water.

[delevi]

I experienced one knockdown my second time out on the boat. Winds were 35 kts and I had full sails up. The near gale came suddenly, right after calm conditions of about 10 kts wind. At the time, I had no idea what I was doing. Once I released the sheets, she came right back up.

As for the daggerboard, I replaced 2 stock boards. In my experience, they are flimsy and don't have enough fiberglass reinformcent. Big notches in the trailing edge are common. The good news is that it is only $200 for a new one. After the 2nd replacement, I ordered a custom board with 150# ballast at the bottom and much stronger. So far so good.

Leon

[JonBill]

Landlocked,

Suggest if you get the M and live in Dallas that you try the Palacios and West Matagorda bay area for your salt water sailing experience. Galveston bay to me is the pits. Palacios/Matagorda bay has more sailable area and is deeper than Galveston on the average. There are far less boats in Palacios area and bottom line it's the best kept secret for sailing in SE Texas. If you try it you won't be disappointed and will think the bay was reserved for you that weekend as you may be the only boat you see for most of the day.

You are right in wanting to know about knock downs, etc. as you have to reef earlier with the M or X than with a traditional fixed keel ballasted monohull sailboat. That is becuase of the amount of ballast that the boat carries in relation to the sail area. Usually need to reef with the M around 12mph wind or 10.5k if the wind is gusting higher or steadily getting stronger. With a traditional sailboat with jib and main up you reef at around 20mph but it varies depending on the boat.

Getting knocked down is part of learning to sail. I was knocked down once off Puerto Rico in a Hunter 27 about 30 years ago. I learned from the experience and it never happened again. Fortunately no one was hurt and no damage to anything.

That's one nice thing about a sailboat when you release the sheets she rights herself and turns into the wind.

The problem comes if you stay down too long and the sails fill with water, then you got a problem. But that's the subject of another post how to right under those conditions. Don't worry about it you'll do just fine.

As far as the dagger board hitting the bottom, first of all if the dagger board is down you are sailing, and if you are sailing you are going slow, and the bottoms of most of the bays in SE Texas are mud and so you just feel a little nudge and it's nothing to worry about. I installed a depth finder and always know how deep it is and know my bay anyway so no problem there. Did leave one of the rudders on the M down once and motored across a shallow coral reef by accident so had to replace the rudder but no biggie there. It was clearly marked on the chart and I was new to the area at the time then but now I know where that sucker is so no prblem. Come on down and see us in Palacios.

Kind Regards,
JonBill

[Tiny Tim]

I got knocked down when there was not enough wind to ruffle the sails. Four souls aboard. Sails luffing and Admiral on the tiller. I was below with 1 guest.

Suddenly the boat was on its side and one crew member was hanging on to the high side screaming that he was going over. The wind was the strongest I have ever experienced and I used to windsurf in storms as a younger man. I knew I had to get the sails released but I had to pull the crew back in first. I pulled him in and went for the jib sheet. The pressure on it was tremendous. Another yank on it and the boat popped up smartly. Another minute and the wind event was over. A gazillion fish flies blotted out the white of the sails (or what was left of the sails - they were pretty tattered.

One other boat, a heavy cruiser (Bayfield 25) was flattened while he was putting up his jib. His wife hasn't been on the boat since. My wife has been out a few times but is paranoid where she used to be a confident and capable sailor.

I have no idea what that wind event was or the wind speed, but I have been in storms before and since with far far less energy than that event. Sometimes you just cannot plan for everything and you have to rely on the boat.

We shipped no water whatsoever. For me it was proof of the self-righting ability and even though the pop-top was up no water came aboard.

Regrettably, for the Admiral it was different.

[AWKIII]

There is absolutely no reason why anyone should experience a knock-down on this boat unless you are an inexperinced sailor or are experienced and pushing the boat beyond its limits.

Sailing in 35 knot winds is crazy. The boat has no business being out in this kind of weather unless you got caught unexpectedly. In that case, take the sails down and motor home.

Sailing with the ballast tanks empty is not advisable either. If you are going to play these kind of games, you better know what you are doing and accept the consequences.

Most broaches and knock-downs can be avoided as you generally know when they are coming. Simply letting go of the mainsheet will take care of the problem. The boat will right herself immediately.

The cruising spinnaker is a blast. I designed and built a larger assymetrical for my boat. These sails will probably get you into trouble if you are not paying attention to what the wind is doing around you. You should learn how to detect shifts and puffs and react acccordingly. Even if this isn't something you have mastered yet, simply letting go of the sheet will depower the sail quick enough. If you get into a real bind, you can always cut the halyard with your trust knife.

The bottom line is that there is little chance of broaching or experiencing a knock-down on this or any other boat as long as you use common sense and sail safe and smart.

Experienced sailors will always push the limits at times. I am guilty of it myself. However, I will never do it with novice or non-sailors aboard. I still get into trouble every now and then when racing but that's another story.

Don't worry about the Mac's stability. Its a fun and easy boat to sail.