Surge brakes and going downhill

[keith]

If your having trouble going downhill do the easy thing first.SLOW DOWN
If your in the right gear you should be able to desend with minimal use of the brakes
Might take a little longer but a whole lot safer

[opie]

Keith,
I was worried that the very act of downshifting will put my well-greased disc brake actuator (TDE #70) in the forward position putting pressure on the brake fluid to the disc caliper pistons and hence friction on the silver-cadmium (Kodiak) rotors. From what I now understand, this WILL happen and you just have to live with it and stop occasionally to let them cool and if you do a lot of downhill driving, you will have to replace your pads often. Disengaging the brakes on a steep decline, either with a metal pin or the solenoid seems to be a no-no.

Keith, I will indeed follow your recommendation and go as slow as I can, probably getting behind one of the heavy 18 wheelers that are often hugging the right lane shoulder as they go down.

[keith]

Opie,
I drove big rigs for years and when i first started an old trucker told me you go down the same speed that you go up and i reckon he was spot on with that advise

[Boblee]

Never had any trouble towing down grades but we do have factory discs which are mandatory here so perhaps that is the reason, as for the actuator lock it is clipped to the ring with the ball pin slightly different to what paul linked but similar, a note here that the lock out clip does not sit there easily and would need to be strapped but personally wouldn't consider towing down a grade with it like that.
Would think that you would have to be really going too hard if your brakes are getting too hot, I may be wrong but don't believe our brakes operate at a steady spead on engine braking unless in too low a gear and if that is the case slow down so that the gearing is not too low.
edit: didn't realise there was a next page and had just said the same as others sorry.

[c130king]

Paul,

thanks for that reference. I have that book...i will dig it out and look at my trailer a little closer. But i am pretty sure I don't have a lock-out like that.

Jim

[Paul S]

Paul,

thanks for that reference. I have that book...i will dig it out and look at my trailer a little closer. But i am pretty sure I don't have a lock-out like that.

Jim

If you have an M factory trailer with UFP coupler, you have capability. You probably have it in a box-o-parts you filed away long ago! I am sure you can get it if you want.

[Starscream]

It seems to me that if the surge brakes are engaging while going downhill, that means that the trailer is trying to go faster than the truck, and this is when you WANT the surge brakes to engage. If they are locked out, the trailer is still trying to go faster than the truck but now all the load is on the truck. Could be dangerous.

What if you had to make an emergency stop on the way down and the surge brakes were locked out?

Brakes are a consumable, they're designed to be used up and replaced. Don't worry about the pads, as long as they don't overheat. A mechanic once explained this to me when we were discussing engine braking (downshifting) as a way to slow down instead of using the brakes. In the long run it's cheaper to replace the pads than to fix all the wear an tear on the engine and transmission parts. It's kind of the same thing here, why put that extra strain on your tow-beast?

I think the occasional stop on the way down a long hill is a good idea if you are worried that the brakes will overheat. The only situation that I can imagine locking out the surge brakes is a good idea to back up a hill.

[opie]

I was taught by my dad, in the 1950's, to downshift on hills. After reading something about 5 years ago about the "pads are cheaper than the engine" I was going down a long decline from NC to TN and used only the brakes on my 1990 Volvo. By the time I was 3/4's of the way down the winding hill I had no brakes at all and had to use the emergency (rear drum inside the disc rotor) brakes to slow down and stop and let things cool off. When pads overheat too much, they do not work. I now downshift to protect myself and family. Heck with the possible cost of transmission repair.....

And it is possible to downshift and cause the trailer coupler-actuator to engage and heat up the pads, b/c as you say, the trailer is going faster than the tow vehicle.

I believe the only way to prevent any trouble is to either go so fast the trailer can not catch up or go slow as mentioned above. The best advice above was to monitor your speed going up a steep hill..... say you can do 45mph...... and match it going down a similar hill......

[c130king]

...
And it is possible to downshift and cause the trailer coupler-actuator to engage and heat up the pads, b/c as you say, the trailer is going faster than the tow vehicle.
...

1st comment...nice use of the elipse...I thought that was my thing...

2nd comment or actually a question...if the trailer brakes engage won't the trailer "slow down"...relieve the tension on the acuator...and thus dis-engage the brakes? Seems like it would cycle.

Thanks,
Jim... (* Stephen, this last elipse was for you my friend... *)

[Kelly Hanson East]

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[Hamin' X]

2nd comment or actually a question...if the trailer brakes engage won't the trailer "slow down"...relieve the tension on the acuator...and thus dis-engage the brakes? Seems like it would cycle....

Mechanical and hydraulic buffers are designed in to prevent this.

As to the advisability of using my method to lockout the brakes while going downhill? The circuit should be designed to cut off the power to the backup wire on the trailer, when the tow vehicle brake lights come on. So:

• Auxiliary switch provides power to the lockout solenoid on the trailer.
  Normally closed relay would open and interrupt this power when brake lights come on.
  Diode in the line from the backup lights to the lockout solenoid, prevents the backup lights from coming on when the auxiliary switch is actuated.

~Rich

[Sumner]

.............Brakes are a consumable, they're designed to be used up and replaced. Don't worry about the pads, as long as they don't overheat. A mechanic once explained this to me when we were discussing engine braking (downshifting) as a way to slow down instead of using the brakes. In the long run it's cheaper to replace the pads than to fix all the wear an tear on the engine and transmission parts. It's kind of the same thing here, why put that extra strain on your tow-beast?

I think the occasional stop on the way down a long hill is a good idea if you are worried that the brakes will overheat. The only situation that I can imagine locking out the surge brakes is a good idea to back up a hill.

The above is very good advice as far as I'm concerned. I always worried about overheating an automatic transmission going up hills not down them. When we were going to Kootenay Lake in Canada we came to this..............



...............long down hill. Now we are pulling a 26S with the orginal single axle, no trailer brakes, trailer. I put the automatic in 2nd on the way down and used the engine/transmission mostly for braking and only touched the brakes if it started getting over 40 mph. Well about half way down we started to smell something and I thought it can't be the brakes as I was hardly using them. The only thing left was the transmission. I pulled in a pullout and pulled the transmission dip stick and yes it was the transmission overheating, but the fluid still looked pretty good. We went the rest of the way to the bottom in 3rd and used the brakes.

I stopped in Nelson, B.C. and talked to a transmission guy and he looked at and smelled the fluid. He didn't feel we had hurt the transmission and just recommended flushing it when we got back home (over 1500 miles away). He pointed out that going down a steep long grade with the transmission in a lower gear and engine braking can really put a load on the transmission and can be just as fatal to it as a long upgrade. This transmission does have an external cooler on it also.

On the way home we had to go down the grade into Lewiston, ID (one of the worst grades I've ever been on and had been on it before, so knew it was coming up). I left the auto in 3rd again and went down on the brakes and tried to keep it around 40 mph. The front discs on the Suburban were stinking by the bottom.

Very shortly now I'm adding a second axle with surge disc brakes to the trailer. I will not disable the brakes on long downhills. Pads, seals, bearings, grease or all a lot cheaper and easier to fix than a transmission.

c ya,

Sum

P.S. If you ever drive to Kootenay from Idaho I'd recommend not going the way we did. Go up the east shore of the lake and take the...........



.................. ferry over, its free . I will have to say the way we went was beautiful.

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Kootenay Trip..

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[pokerrick1]

Sam;

I couldn't do what you did to your trailer if you were standing next to me Nice work

Rick Less

[bubba]

We regually trailer across Snowquami Pass ( in the Cascade Mt range ) to Seattle and all I do is shift out of overdrive and stay under 65 mph with no problems. I have noticed that in Seattle on there steep hills in town at under 35 mph the trailer breaks do drag and has poped off the rubber cover on our grease housing and some grease got on the rim but no damage.

[thanks dad]

I towed my new M to Florida from Southern Cal. I went through 3 tires, one wheel and a fender from a blow out. The left disk break was dragging and heating up. This caused the disks on left to break and wedge into caliper. Also the seals failed from heat . Lucky it was still under warranty. Called the manufacture and they replaced the left side.
In the directions they say that you should have the tongue on a slight incline. I will increase mine a notch or two. I definitely will experiment with it. I think the incline will make the trailer sit back off the actuator. This incline being overcome when the brakes are applied. I have an adjustable hitch and hope this will solve the problem.
If you are wondering about the tires. Tire and wheel were passing me, and waving good bye in New Mexico. Changed one in El Paso. Then bought Two Good Year Radials in Tallahassee Fl. after the blown tire. (made in China tires) The new tires are still in fine shape. I thought wrongly that I would at least get one trip on the tires that came with the trailer.
I also had to raise the torsion arms two notches since the tires were rubbing on the fenders. This boat has been quite an adventure with all the warranty problems I have experienced. Nest season I hope will be better.