4 Furlers Mac 26M

[beene]

Hey Boat.... Read this post...

http://www.macgregorsailors.com/forum/v ... ze#p244943

Re: boat capsized - 3 children dead
Postby RussMT » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:44 pm

DaveB wrote:
I remember 2 or so years ago when a Mac. capsized on July 4th with to many people on deck and loss of children life.
I was out the 4th and saw to many people on small boats.


Yes that was a 4th of July accident as well. And to be clear, similar causes for that tragedy as well. 12 people on a Mac without ballast and a drunk captain decided it was a good idea to see how fast it can go with fins down.

Grossly overloading a boat can lead to loss of life. Mixing too much alcohol with testosterone also.
User avatar
RussMT
Admiral

[beene]

I do not know of ANY incident ever where a ballasted M boat tipped over - and have only heard a rumor of it happening once to an X boat. I do remember that one you cite now - that was an un-ballasted boat. I do not think I have ever heard of a MAC tipping over even un-ballasted except for that one and another where the guy turned sharply with the DB down under power at 10 knots with NO ballast on board AND he had six people on TOP of the cabin. That one did tip over. That was the X boat that I heard about that is still really just a rumor.

There would be some kind of report or evidence if it had ever actually happened WITH ballast on board- and since there is none - I don't have any reason to think that a ballasted MAC M can tip over.

Sorry Boat
I thought you had said never heard of one capsizing unballasted.

I too have never heard of a ballasted Mac capsizing

From my experience with her, she hits that balance point beyond 45 indicated and just sits there till the trouble is gone.

Good design if you ask me

I have pushed her hard, and she just wont go over, just enough that all your S%%t will smash and bash in the cabin as it goes flying to the other side

G

[BOAT]

Hey Boat.... Read this post...

http://www.macgregorsailors.com/forum/v ... ze#p244943

Re: boat capsized - 3 children dead
Postby RussMT » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:44 pm

DaveB wrote:
I remember 2 or so years ago when a Mac. capsized on July 4th with to many people on deck and loss of children life.
I was out the 4th and saw to many people on small boats.


Yes that was a 4th of July accident as well. And to be clear, similar causes for that tragedy as well. 12 people on a Mac without ballast and a drunk captain decided it was a good idea to see how fast it can go with fins down.

Grossly overloading a boat can lead to loss of life. Mixing too much alcohol with testosterone also.
User avatar
RussMT
Admiral

That report is about a MAC? I can't find anywhere in the story about a MAC - what kind of boat is it ?? Where in the story does it tell the type of boat?

[BOAT]

I do not have the potty bolted down. It sits on a shelf I made with a 2 inch lip holding it back. I checked the angle at which a full potty would tip over that 2 inch lip by putting the potty full of water on a board with a 2 inch lip on it and started lifting the board to see the angle where it tips over. Since all the poop (water in this case) was in the bottom the potty was bottom heavy (who cares what an empty potty does?).

The potty held fast at 47 degrees! And then at 48 it slowly tipped over. I did that potty tipping test like two years ago.

All this time I have assumed that if my potty has not tipped over I have not exceeded 45 degrees. Maybe I am wrong.

I still don't think it's possible to tip over sa MAC M boat with ballast in it by just using the main and the jib. MAYBE with a kite it might be possible.

[dlandersson]

Here's a better test - can you sit and read the Sunday paper in comfort?

I do not have the potty bolted down. It sits on a shelf I made with a 2 inch lip holding it back. I checked the angle at which a full potty would tip over that 2 inch lip by putting the potty full of water on a board with a 2 inch lip on it and started lifting the board to see the angle where it tips over. Since all the poop (water in this case) was in the bottom the potty was bottom heavy (who cares what an empty potty does?).

The potty held fast at 47 degrees! And then at 48 it slowly tipped over. I did that potty tipping test like two years ago.

All this time I have assumed that if my potty has not tipped over I have not exceeded 45 degrees. Maybe I am wrong.

I still don't think it's possible to tip over sa MAC M boat with ballast in it by just using the main and the jib. MAYBE with a kite it might be possible.

[beene]

From http://sailinganarchy.com/2008/02/06/11332/

Drunk and Stupid

A Charlotte man convicted of drunken boating following a 2002 Lake Champlain
capsizing that killed two children could be sent back to prison for two
more years. George Dean Martin was drunk — he registered a 0.217 percent
blood-alcohol level, according to court papers — while maneuvering a
a MacGregor 26X. The capsizing trapped Melissa Mack, 9, and her
brother, Trevor, 4, underwater. They drowned before adults on the boat,
including their parents, Steve and Laura Mack of Charlotte, could reach
them.

[BOAT]

From http://sailinganarchy.com/2008/02/06/11332/

Drunk and Stupid

A Charlotte man convicted of drunken boating following a 2002 Lake Champlain
capsizing that killed two children could be sent back to prison for two
more years. George Dean Martin was drunk — he registered a 0.217 percent
blood-alcohol level, according to court papers — while maneuvering a
a MacGregor 26X. The capsizing trapped Melissa Mack, 9, and her
brother, Trevor, 4, underwater. They drowned before adults on the boat,
including their parents, Steve and Laura Mack of Charlotte, could reach
them.

i HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO FIND A NEWS REPORT TO BACK THIS ONE UP. It's a rumor I hear from those "sailboat Anarchy" guys all the time, but no one seems to be able to give me the actual news story.

That is the one about an X boat tipping over that I always hear about.

So here is the record:

We have ONE M boat actually tipping over in San Diego (In a BAY! Where there are no waves, no swells), and it's determined by the investigation that the boat had NO ballast, (And OBVIOUSLY the guy put 11 people on TOP of the deck by his own admission "SAILING in gusty winds" again his own admission! So in reality he was SAILING with NO ballast! With no swells it's obvious that the thing that tipped the boat over was all the people on the top.

Then we have a rumor of an X boat that tipped over under power, still just a rumor . . . . that's it??? That's the best we can do after THOUSANDS of boats have put out to sea?? That's it??

Can we find any other boat of ANY size with a comparable record? ANYTHING?

[BOAT]

Here's a better test - can you sit and read the Sunday paper in comfort?

[/quote]

Hmmm, well, I guess but to be honest since reading Beene's posts I think I will put some hold downs on my potty here in the future. He says the boats can lean more than 45 degrees and if that is true I could get poo poo all over my boat!!!

I think i will need to install something to hold down the potty!

[beene]

I think i will need to install something to hold down the potty!

That would be very "Poodent" for you to do



G

[BOAT]

I think i will need to install something to hold down the potty!

That would be very "Poodent" for you to do



G

Hey Beene! You the "no hands" expert, can I ask it you ever considered installing an auto pilot? (Or do you have one?) I am really wrangling about this because it's getting time for me to get this taken care of and I am still on the fence about what's the best unit to get.

[NiceAft]

I saw BOAT's post asking if anyone has exceeded 45 degrees, and then I just skipped to the end of the thread without reading more posts, so if I am repeating any other poster, I appologize.

The Admiral and I have many times exceeded 45 degrees in Nice Aft. You don't have very strong forward speed at that angle of heel, but it is a heck of a thrilling ride

On our boat, the gauge that registers the angle you are heeling goes to 45 degrees. We have hit that more than once, and kept going I am fortunate to have a wife who has a boating past. She loves it

I tell power boaters that at two or three knots, I can give them more thrills than they can get at thirty knots in their boats.

Ray

P.S. Here is a shot matt19120 took of us sailingon the Delaware. That was sailing , not being hit by a puff. That angle is about 45 degrees.

[mastreb]

BOAT--Not sure if by "M" boat you meant "MacGregor" or 26M, but the boat that capsized here in San Diego was a 26D. It was on a beam reach under 150% genoa only, with 12 people on the boat, most of them on the bow, and un-ballasted. When it was hit by a gust, the bow dug in due to the forward weight-loading and turtled the boat.

Here's a photograph of the newspaper clipping regarding the two children who were killed by a drunk skipper:

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html

In that case, according to another report I'd read but can't find, he had the centerboard down and was un-ballasted when he hit the throttle to WOT and turned the boat at speed at the same time. This was according to witnesses on other boats. With the centerboard down above planing speed in a turn, the boat was unable to roll into the turn, and rolled outside instead, flipping it. It was the worst-case scenario. I've seen power-boaters execute this same JACKASS maneuver all the time at the end of fire-works and boat parades, often failing to even look before they execute their sudden WOT U-turn. A group of kids on a 26 foot Bayliner did this right next to us in the Hudson when we were there for the 4th of July, and looked at me in panic as they came at us. Fortunately I knew how to execute an S-curve avoid and got out of their way with just under six inches to spare. Drives me apeshit when I see boaters do that.

The link above however has passengers stating that he somehow wasn't intoxicated, and that the boat was moving slowly when it rolled. The boat was loaded with 8 adults in the cockpit or on deck, and the three children in the cabin. Those statements seem intended to blame the design of the boat for the accident. Considering that this is the only roll-over of an X recorded, out of over 5,000 hulls operating for going on 20 years now, the design is not the issue, overloading is. I've also seen one report of a 26M being knocked down while sailing due to being un-ballasted, and the one report of a 26D turtling because it was un-ballasted and overloaded.

Water ballast has to be respected, as do retractable keels and loading limits.

Now I personally have sailed with 11 people on board, five adults and six kids, in the open ocean out of Oceanside. The boat actually sails like a dream that laden, and we were easily doing 5 knots in 12 knots of wind on a beam reach with a consistent heel that had the black rubber seal bumper in the water. At no point did that feel unsafe to me, but I also managed the loading by having kids in the cabin, kids and an adult on the bow, and people evenly distributed in the cockpit. In any case it was fun but crowded and I don't recommend anyone do it. I did it when we first got the boat, and I wouldn't do it now just because of the possibility of error on my part. The manufacturer's load rating for the boat in Europe is C6, D6, with the manual recommending no more than four when planing without ballast.

It is my personal opinion that these boats should have been built with a ball-valve opposite the gate valve. The ball-valve operates one-way, letting water into the ballast tanks, but not out, and it would ensure that the boat is ballasted when in the water, and the gate valve would be used to dump ballast at the ramp. This way the boat is ballasted by default whenever its in the water whether the operator remembers to fill the tanks or not. People who want more speed under plane can add more HP--A 90 hp motor on a ballasted boat is as safe as a 60hp motor on an un-ballasted boat, if not more-so. When I was considering renting out my M, I intended to install just such a ball-valve so that renters could not use the boat un-ballasted. I decided that the daggerboard problem was too much liability for renting however.

It would also be relatively simple to put an electronic rev-limiter tied to a switch that would prevent the boat from getting on a plane if the boards are down, although its less problematic because you'll immediately notice if you have the daggerboard or centerboard down under plane by how wobbly the boat is.

I had my steering bar come off the engine while at WOT planing on the Chesapeake, throwing the engine hard over to starboard, un-ballasted with five people aboard. The boat executed a hard U-turn in the water, very safely rolling correctly inward and I dropped the throttle because I was surprised by the move. That's the worst-case powerboat maneuver the boat could make under high loading conditions, and it behaved perfectly fine. So the boats are not unstable under plane unless the boards are down and they cannot roll in correctly.

I've also gone WOT with the daggerboard down once by accident. You will immediately notice strong wobbling, and as long as you aren't executing a turn, the boat will feel like its still in the "8-12" knot instability zone the entire way up. I killed the throttle while I wondered what the problem was until I realized I had the board down.

[BOAT]

Now after all these years I have had swing keel and I have had water ballast I will take water ballast over a swing ballast ALWAYS.

If you lose your swing ballast your screwed - no way to get it back, with water ballast it's easy to fill er up anytime.
Swing ballast is dangerous in a storm. If the boat turtles the swing ballast can swing back on you and crash through the bottom of the boat.

Everything we do is dependent on the feature that we are sailing a TRAILER boat. Therefore some kind of moveable keel is required. The Aquarius was considered the safest of the trailer boats because it did not have a swing mass keel, it just had a centerboard and then it had 900 pounds of lead ballast built into the hull. This is great but not practical on anything bigger than 23 feet.

I think the water ballast has more than proven itself as superior to every other method of ballast used on moveable keel boats. The record is clear - the statistically significant number of failure occurrences show the water ballast record as perfect - something the swing mass and centerboard keels can't say. Water has proven to be superior.

But it does not stop there - I still do not think the MAC will tip over even sailing UN-BALLASTED if it's not overloaded, why? because of the 300 pounds of permanent ballast in the boat. Oh, you might get the boat to put green in the portholes (something heavy keelboats do ALL THE TIME) but the boat will pop right back up even with NO ballast. So you realize your empty, and "fill er up" no big deal.

Nope, the MAC M boat with the 300 permanent pounds of ballast will NOT tip over even if the ballast is empty unless overloaded. It's the high freeboard that causes the overloading problem - people on the deck are so high above the water that it's unstable to have a lot of weight up there. Highlander already has proven that the MAC M boat can haul a HUGE amount of weight and remain stable - it's not the weight but where you put it. Sure, she does sail at 40 degrees a lot, Whoop -de-do! like who cares? The only people that seem to be afraid of a 40 degree heel angle are those guys at sailboat anarchy and a few of our wives. Most real sailors love the high angles.

Power boating? Heck, just look on U Tube for "26 foot boat flips" and you can find vid after vid after vid of 24, 25, and 26 foot Glasstron, Bayliners, and tahiti boats flipped over in the water. Even as a POWER BOAT the mac M boat has a better record than POWER BOATS it's size! If people are worried about their boat tipping over the last thing they need to worry about is having a MAC M boat. It's the last thing on my mind. My concerns are always about high winds and waves and breaking the rigging out at sea and losing the mast, busting rudders, steering cables - and stuff like that, but the boat is NOT gonna "tip over".

[Highlander]

Talking of no ballast I,ll have fun with my little mac "bay walker 10 this summer
http://s844.photobucket.com/user/TheHig ... w.jpg.html

But I guess once I put the tube kit on it is considered ballast
http://www.walkerbay.com/dinghies-sailk ... ail-kit-2/

But then again once I hang "Beene,S " Butt out there for rail meat I should be OK !

J
PS Notice she,s got a new bowsprit already

[BOAT]

hA hA~ Beene told everyone that he had to tow highlander boat! Now Beene will be in trouble!! Ha!