Using genoa as a jib?

[jjan]

Hi again,
I am totally new to this sailing game and need some advice. I am waiting for delivery of a Macgregor M and have been given a few options in the price. One of the options is a genoa instead of a jib, is this a smart choice for a novice sailor and can a genoa be used in the same way as a jib by keeping it rolled in a touch? Sorry for the silly questions but I don't know what is best.
J

[NiceAft]

If you are looking for ease of sailing. If you are not looking to squeeze the boat to perfection, then get a roller furling genny. You can easily change sails by pulling a line. When you get more involved, you can then think about playing with the more aggressive sailors, or, you may be ready now. what do you want while sailing

Ray

[jjan]

Hi,
are you saying that a genoa can do everything a jib can do and more and can I make the genoa as small as I would like i.e. the size of a jib?
Thanks
J

[NiceAft]

Are you trying to put words into my mouth

A genoa can be roller furled into a sail the size of a jib when the wind picks up, or be used full size in light wind. this gives flexibility No more. No less.

Ray

[Ivan Awfulitch]

Hi,
are you saying that a genoa can do everything a jib can do and more and can I make the genoa as small as I would like i.e. the size of a jib?
Thanks
J

Assuming you have roller furling, this is a true statement. My X came with both a 150 Genoa and jib, but I have never used the jib and the previous owner used it twice (while waiting for the Genoa to arrive). If you're using hank-on headsails (you don't have roller furling) this is not the case.

[Indulgence]

I'm pretty new at this too, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

Winds here are frequently pretty strong. One or two reefs is standard procedure.
The problem I have with the 150 roller furling genny is when it's rolled up to "jib size" the bottom naturally climbs the roller putting the center of effort high off the deck in strong winds. That is exactly when I'd like the forces to be concentrated lower down to reduce heeling and rounding. If I had a choice I would like to try a 110% or 130% roller furling genoa.

If your location has nothing but light gentle wind, you won't have the issues I do.

just my thoughts,
Laurie

[beene]

I find it will all depend on how picky you are. A genny on a furler is great for most. But some will insist on the best performance possible at all times from their sailboat.

In light air, full main and genny. As the wind picks up, you must reef the main and either furl in some genny or change to a jib. As the wind continues to increase, less main and less head sail..... etc etc

A furled Genny will never perform as good as a head sail properly sized for the conditions. But it will do ok in most conditions.

Hope this helps

G

[Hardcrab]

I'll attempt to put some numbers on it for you.
If your average winds are at or above 13-15 knots for most of your time on the water, then a jib on the roller is a better choice.
Less than those numbers calls for a genny on the roller.
Of course, these numbers aren't cast in stone, but I think most will agree they're not to far off.

A reefed in genny is fine for higher winds, just not the most perfect solution.
You'll still make way.

Like NiceAft wrote, it depends on your intent in the first place.
Max performance you can get at all times, or just being on the water and throwing some canvas up in the air to get what you get.

[SkiDeep2001]

JJAN, like you, I am new to this, sailing that is, other than some limited exposure 40 years ago in high school . Three weeks ago I bought a genoa for my to replace the original woven jib sail that was starting to deteriorate. I got info from 2 sources, Blue Water Yachts said that a jib would be easier to learn with and I could buy a genoa later on after getting some experience on the water.(I am not looking to be a heeled over speed demon just yet) Jeff at KH Sails thought I should go with genoa as it could be furled for heavier conditions. Both said it can depend on where you are located and skill and desired end results. You should upgrade your profile to include your location, so others know what kind of conditions you might have locally. I am in the Northwest and will be dealing with possibility of strong winds in Puget Sound and I will drop sail and motor if I need to, so I will add a jib later. If your choice is strictly to save money you can buy the jib, put a year or two under your belt and add a genoa later, after you get $$$ issue from buying boat behind you somewhat. You can use the info above that you're getting from more experienced sailors to help in your decision. I haven't even installed my new genoa yet and I was out for a few days last weekend without a headsail. Winds were a little strong so I didn't mind not being fully rigged, and centerboard wouldn't drop on Monday so I had that issue to deal with. Good Luck Rob

[jjan]

Hi All,
Thanks for the replies. The reason I asked is that the genoa is more expensive and is coming in with the price as the dealer said that the genoa is a better sail and if I get the jib I would want to replace it in a few months for the genoa. However, upon researching the genoa, I have found that it can restrict the helmsman in his ability to see the bow in some situations as it more than fills the "foreward triangle" and as I am new to sailing it did concern me a bit. But if I can use it as a jib for a while it would be like having 2 sails for the price of 1 thus my question.
J

[Ivan Awfulitch]

Not knowing your sailing conditions, I love the genoa on our X. We generally sail in fairly light air, 6-12 knots and have only furled it once when the wind picked up in the 20 knot range. We enjoy the way the boat sails in light to moderate air with a light chop using only the genoa (seems to porpoise less) and it's easy to furl when returning to the marina. We have a sewn on Sunbrella sail cover which has kept the sail like new while installed all summer.

You are having roller furling (CDI, Harken, Schaffer, etc.) installed for your headsail aren't you? If you don't, you'll probably regret it and if you install it later you'll have to have your hank-on sails modified at a sail loft.

[jjan]

Not knowing your sailing conditions, I love the genoa on our X. We generally sail in fairly light air, 6-12 knots and have only furled it once when the wind picked up in the 20 knot range. We enjoy the way the boat sails in light to moderate air with a light chop using only the genoa (seems to porpoise less) and it's easy to furl when returning to the marina. We have a sewn on Sunbrella sail cover which has kept the sail like new while installed all summer.

You are having roller furling (CDI, Harken, Schaffer, etc.) installed for your headsail aren't you? If you don't, you'll probably regret it and if you install it later you'll have to have your hank-on sails modified at a sail loft.

Hi Ivan,
Thanks for the advice. Yes I am having a roller furler as an option as there seems to be some really good deals going around at the moment including no delivery charges which is a huge saving of around 2-3 thousand dollars as I live in Canada. I am buying from a US dealer who is delivering it to the border for free and throwing in loads of factory options for way less than I could have bought in Canada so it's a matter of economics really.
J

[bscott]

You still have not identified where your sailing but if you're in Canada my guess is that the winds are variable high.
The genny can be reefed only about 1/2 way--it then becomes a balloon high up the forestay. You will have to reset your genny sheets to the inside of the shrouds and run the jib blocks forward to the cabin top to a position on the track whereby the imaginary line of your sheet intersects the the genny midway on the luff (between the head and the tack) to give you the flatest headsail. So it is not just a function of rolling in the furler if you want to make the sail work the way it was designed. Someone will have to be on the cabin top to switch the sheet to correctly reef the genny.

The genny will also require use of the cabin winch to harden the sheets while most crew can easily handle the jib without the use of the winch. Tacking is much easier with a jib. So, from an inexperienced crew's point of view, the jib is a better choice.

The seems to perform quite well with a jib. I sail with a KH 2000 jib and a furler and like it's versatility. There are two times that I turn on the iron genny---low wind and too much wind. A major benefit of the Mac.

Let us know what you decide,

bscott

[delevi]

As others have said, it all depends on where you sail. Is it two sails in one? Yes, but not really. The Mac is a tender boat and is easily overpowered in higher winds when too much sail is up. The headsail tends to overpower the boat more than the mainsail. A genoa is harder to control for a new sailor, harder to tack, harder to sheet, harder to see, etc. Both jib and genoa block your view to leeward (behind the side where the sails are being flown.) A partially rolled genoa is best for visibility since the bottom portion of the sail climbs up the furler, but that visibility comes at a price (loss of performance.) You can't beat a genoa in 10 knots of wind, other than the fact that it's still more difficult to control for a novice. You can't beat a jib in 12 knots or higher. In higher winds, even the jib will need to be reefed (rolled part way.) A reefed jib will outperform a reefed genoa given roughly equal overall sail area. A full jib will outperform a reefed genoa. You may consider the jib for ease of handling, and later getting the genoa when you gain some experience and comfort level with the boat and sailing in general. It's nice to have one of each anyway. There is no perfect (all-in-one) solution.

Leon

[Moe]

Their are two problems with using a furled genoa in lieu of a working jib. One is that the foresail center of effort rises a little as the sail is furled, increasing the heeling moment. The other, worse result, is that as a sail is furled, it gets baggier, and hence relatively more powerful for its size, right at the time you're trying to reduce its power. You can have a luff pad sewn in the sail that takes up more of the sail in the center and less on the ends, keeping the sail flat as it is furled. Here's our luff pad:



Now that I've tried it a few times, I find that using a messenger line to remove and install a sail on the CDI Flexible Furler 2 with the mast up, is not a difficult chore. Certainly, you would want to do this, and get the right sail for the day, if racing. However, if you're a cruiser and have consistently light winds like we do in Ohio, you may prefer to use a genoa, with a luff pad for the occasionally breezy day.

Hope this helps,
--
Moe