Motoring in High Winds

[deacm]

I was wondering..........typically when I get into high winds (25 knots+) I often drop sail, have the water ballast in and all foils down and make my way back home. Here's the question: When the wind is blowing abeam, is it better to have all rudders/centerboard down or up? I find that when they are down that the freeboard of the boat and the depth of the rudders/centerboard causes ALOT of heeling and loss of steerage at times. Would it be less so if the rudders etc were 'up' and not causing that drag/fulcrum in the water and then just letting the ample horsepower motor fight whatever slippage you might experience? Your experience?

[Kevin]

I'm talking from the M perspective. The owner's manual is real clear to have the centerboard and rudders up over 6 mph.

Not in a high wind, but in calm conditions on a lake, I forgot and left the daggerboard down as I went to WOT. The boat heeled like mad and scared the bejeezus out of me.

With a little umph the daggerboard will generate lift and roll the boat over sideways. I have no idea how far, and I'm sure not going to be the one to test it, but it will get squirrly.

I have motored on the Columbia River in 35mph winds with the foils all up and didn't seem to have any real problem at speed. Docking was an adventure and requires all the foils down.

[BK]

I was in very high winds coming back from Victoria to Friday Harbor. I was going down wind with the waves and had rudders and C/B up so I could keep up with the waves. I am now only going to Sidney Harbor and taking the bus down to Victoria. Scarey 2 hours.

[Paul S]

kevin..can relate

Having the DB and rudders powering at more than 6 kts is not good. makes the boat flakey, steering seems to get harder.

I do leave a inch or 2 down and it seems to help it go straight. no more than 1-2".

Paul

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

In my experience, its always better to have a little swath of head sail out even if motoring in high winds. This stabalizes the rolling of the boat considerably. In heavy following seas, you need some rudder down to avoid broaching, but the wear and tear on the rudders seems pretty significant too.

[dclark]

I'm not sure he was asking about motoring over 6mph. The same "rule" applys to the X as to the M in that respect (everything up over 6mph). In situations with high wind (and waves to match), I've usually kept everything down and tried to take the swells at an angle. It probably wouldn't hurt much to pull the CB up but I don't think the rudders do anything but help.

[Tom Spohn]

My previous rule with my X and later the M was to have the foils down only when under 6 mph. Sometimes I let it creep up to 7, but never over that. Lately when in high winds and especially turbulent current (frequently happen together in Puget Sound) I pull up the foils at all speeds. The motor seems to be able to keep me going where I wish. Now I use the foils only for parking in my ridiculously tight slip.

[Randy Smith]

On the Columbia I have experience high winds. I fill the ballast and the boat is very stable...everything up...if I have a side drift I have experimented with the keel slightly down, again, slightly, just to give the hull a little sideways "bite". Ususally, the boat performs just the way I need her to......YES!!!!! I always dock with the keel down and at least one rudder down....high winds both down.....ballast always in in high winds as the boat won't track well.........

[Andy26M]

I cannot speak for the X, but on my M the boat rides and steers much better with the foils up under power (6+ mph).

I also find that taking the ballast out of the M has very little effect on stability in waves up to about 4 feet, but lets you ride much drier and saves gas, so I try and run the ballast out if I have far to go under power.

For docking - I have a few tight turns to make so I put the daggerboard down a few feet. This "welds" the pivot point of the boat right at the daggerboard (otherwise the pivot point moves fore and aft depending on your speed/direction) to give much tighter and more predictable turns. I do not put a rudder down for tight maneuvering because it stops the stern from side-slipping and actually widens the turns.

- AndyS

[norbert]

in my experience it is better to sail or motorsail in high winds. the boat is more stable and rolls less than under engine alone. and... it is a sailboat isn't it? shure that ballast is always full. for me rudder and centerboards are always down in heavy weather.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Fins up over 7 knots is my rule. Any faster and you will get lift from the centerboard that will roll the boat. Also when traveling any distance under power the ballast is always empty. I only motor with the ballast in in 4'+ seas or if it's a short distance until I expect to sail next. Depending on the wind and sea conditions the boat behaves better at different speeds. In medium chop 2'-3' the boat requires far less steering input at 11 knots than it does at 9 knots. A small change in speed can make a big difference.

The one bad combo I have found is at the 6-7 knots range with only the centerboard down, even just a little. The motor doesn't have the surface area to counter the centerboard and the nose wanders continually. Drop a rudder and the boat is on rails.

In pretty much any seas if you are concerned about how the boat is behaving slow down to 5-6 knots, drop the fins and you will have great control. This works good even in a following sea, but I do worry about the extra stress these conditions put on the rudders. Often in a following sea I will raise the fins and speed up to around 9 knots. This gets a little bit better form stability and saves the rudders although it can be a workout at the wheel.

Centerboard and one or two rudders down around docks. I think this is best because you still get decent control when drifting toward the dock in neutral. Without the rudder the motor doesn't have enough surface area to give you steerage at low speeds when in neutral.

[Jesse Days Pacific Star 2]

Heavy seas and high winds: All fins down, ballast filled up and keep the speed at 6 knots. Has worked great for us on Puget Sound.

Jesse

[deacm]

Ok, I think all the answers here are drifting a bit from my original question (although all the input was great). Let me restate and clarify my original post:

1. I am talking ONLY about motoring during high winds that are coming directly ABEAM of the boat. I have no problem with head to wind or in following seas. MY question was directed only at that situation when the wind was coming directly from the port or starboard. In that situation, given the high freeboard of our boats, I seem to get a TON of roll and difficult steerage with alot of stress on the rudders when I have the rudders/CB fully down.

2. I am NOT talking about motoring with rudders/CB down over 6 knots. I never push that limit per the manufacturers recommendation.

In the end, I was just wondering if pulling up all the foils (with ballast in.....or?) would decrease the 'roll' experienced with high beam winds........i.e. does the rudders/CB INCREASE the roll by the side-'drag' they cause .

Your responses sparked another question. How does putting up a little head sail keep the boat from rolling when on a beam reach in high winds?

Thanks guys

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Deacm, the wind on the headsail basically holds the boat down so it can't roll (be affected by waves) as much..by cutting down the oscillations, your stability (and comfort) increases greatly. This was also true on my former keel boat. I expect there are some better definitions written out there about why it is, but I assure you, if you try it, you will definitely feel the difference.

[Frank C]

Deac,
IMO, Dimitri's answer almost obviates the original hypothesis, and I think that I agree w/him. On a beam reach, I'd probably prefer motorsailing, some sail up, dictates that foils must be down, limiting speed to 6 or so. I'd probably prefer a reefed main instead of headsail in heavy winds. Wind pressure on the sail reduces the oscillations of the hull, stabilizing the rolling motion.

OTOH, if I wanted to make more speed in such conditions, then I'd avoid the beam heading. Especially where the wind is traveling across open water (moderate fetch), I'd not want to motor w/ waves on the beam. I'd probably try "motor-tacking" so I could take waves at 30 degrees or better. If waves weren't too tall, I might try to make 15 knots or so, leaving me with ~10 knots (VMG) along the center of the tacking "zipper."

Sorry that I missed you in Annapolis - didn't arrive until the week after the boat show. Hope the Odin's providing lots of fun!