Radar Arch vs Bimini

[Jeff Ritsema]

I have pondered the merits of a fixed arch vs removable/retractable bimini and would appreciate your thoughts. In observing the one link to the heavily "overloaded boat" that had a F/G arch I wondered IF an arch were possible, what material would be best suited? Stainless or aluminum? And if it were a permanent fixture, would it adversely affect the trailering characteristics of the boat, having too much windage? I can imagine a number of advantages/disadvantages for both a retractable bimini or the fixed arch, but would like to open this subject up for further discussion. Has anyone had a custom arch made?
Jeff

[Pouw Geuzebroek]

Hm interesting concept. I have always liked the Hunter Arch with the traveller on it. I still have not found the right spot for a traveller on an X. Don't like it where the M has it. The arch could be a great solution for it too. If I remember well there was a Mod long time ago of someone that made a traveller on an Arch on an X.

Found it.

http://www.macgregorsailors.com/cgi-bin ... record=302

[Jesse Days Pacific Star 2]

In my humble opinion, an arch on a 26x or m just looks ridiculous.

Jesse

[Jeff Ritsema]

What I'm imagining is an arch mounted on the stern of the boat serving as support for a canvas enclosure, electronics, mount for the backstay, and, perhaps, some arrangement for a traveler/mainsheet. It could include a stern light, a mast support bracket for motoring and trailering (not sure if it would be too high to be practical for that), and, what the heck, why not throw a diving board on the top for the grandkids. I'm appealing to you engineers out there to create the ultimate. Since I've sailed with my 5 previous sailboats with only a dodger, I'm unsure about the impact of this arrangement (or even a bimini) on the sailing ability, and, as stated earlier, on the trailerability for long hauls.

[dennisdl]

from the Options price list at Inmon Yachts
http://www.macgregorsailboats.com/macgr ... icing.html
they show the following:
Custom S/S Radar Arch/Mast Carrier, makes mast raising very easy, recommended for any boat being trailered @ $690.00
Anybody got one??

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Just by itself an arch might be weird, but incorporated into an enclosure it would work well. Since our enclosure is up in one form or another all the time it wouldn't look out of place.

I think this would be particularly true with the taller Dowsar enclosure I have.

I have thought about building one two different ways. The front bow of the tall dowsar bimini is just aft of the end of the boom. If it was changed to a arch it could easily incorporate a traveler. Rather than on top the traveler would be on the front face. The top would provide space for electronics stuff. I'd also build in the mast carrier in the center. It would have that agressive reverse angle look as it leans forward.

The other place I have considered is just outside of and above the aft bow of the tall bimini. The existing bimini would fold up just under it. It would provide electronics mounts, a mast carrier in the center, a small lift crane on the starboard side as well as mounts for the lifesling, lifering, BBQ.

In either of these cases I would design it to mount exactly where the current aft rails mount. This would work particularly well with the Dowsar enclosure because It's already got 6'2 headroom inside and the arch clearing it would be out of the way. One at the lower bimini height of the other enclosure brands would be a head banger.

I'd keep it light, no bigger than 1" tube. Sorta similar to the new M mast carrier but more substantial and useful. A two tube side by side structure with a few cross ties.

Right now I'm leaning toward the aft one without the traveler. I might mock up a EMT one this winter. Should be pretty cheap and simple. Then I just have to figure out how to bend and weld Stainless Steel.

[Chip Hindes]

Seems to me we had this discussion several months ago. Was that before the new board came into existence?

I actually like the looks of some of the arches. My guess is, in the overall scheme of things, for any reasonably sized arch the additional windage and weight of the arch itself would be negligible. Not so if you start loading it up with radomes, antennas, satellite dishes, etcetera.

But I think the idea that a single arch could serve as a mount for both a traveler and all this other stuff is not sound. I believe any reasonably effective traveler must be mounted well below the boom, and well foward. The higher you mount it, and further aft, the less effective it is as a traveler. A traveler mounted behind the boom would be completely useless.

Of course, as soon as you put it under the boom, you can't use it to mount radomes, antennas or any of this other stuff everybody wants to hang off it.

[Jim Bunnell]

You might be interested in the arch/enclosure design Joe was working on for "Time Warp", a 26M here.

[dennisdl]

another site with a Mac 26X installation
http://www.macgregor-boats.com/moyer/moyer.html

looks a little "messy" to me...

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

The Moyer one has been around for years, way to massive for my tastes. I also put Joes in the overkill category.

My thoughts are smaller scale, just not a wimpy as the mac one on the M.

I agree that the traveler would be tricky to implement, that's why I am leaning toward the aft version with no traveler. I'd like to have a better place to mount stuff out of the way, and a better mast carrier. I want to be able to lower the mast while my enclosure stays up. I have some pictures of a boat from Canada that has a way to do this with the Dowsar enclosure but his approach won't work for trailering. The trick is to find a way to lower the mast without having to fold down the dodger.

I'm thinking the only solution that would make this work is a extention at the mast base that raises the step about 2'. This would raise the hinge point so the mast clears the dodger. I'd lower the gooseneck to bring the boom back lower, maybe not quite as low as today and with the extra length up in the air I would be able to switch to a M main for more sail area. Shouldn't be to hard to engineer a fixed stup that is attached to the deck.

[Chip Hindes]

So maybe you need two arches; a small one forward for the traveler, and a larger one aft for mounting stuff.

I'm pretty unenthusiastic about the idea of an enclosure which has to stay up up during trailering. Despite the fact I'm glad I have them when they're needed, most of the time I consider my separate dodger and bimini a necessary evil, and prefer to fold them down and out of the way whenever I can.

[waternwaves]

Gotta agree with Chip on this one......

I now have the BWY style wide dodger and and modified Bimini, and the likely place to put the traveler arch, with sufficient height to be useful and still be accessable is just aft of the dodger., so It looks like for my boat I am leaning toward a traveler arch which is slillghtly larger than the dodger or modify the dodger to snap to the fore end of the traveler arch.

When I am sailing in the Snotty stuff, I generally keep part of the connector piece between the Bimini top and the dodger open anyway for the mainsheet to travel....

Having a real tracked traveler will be very nice to get the boat to aligned a little tighter to the wind.

But for a aft arch,......I dont like any of the solutions I have seen,

If I have one it needs the capabilty to mount radar, vhf, lights, solar panel and a small wind generator ,(and why anyone in that photo would mount their radar below the arch, surrounded with 8 tubes of stainless steel is beyond me), as well as connect to a Bimini Cover and aft screen.


I have been stooping under my modified bimini This year, And I could see how nice it would be to have the boom higher for cockpit access, but there is that balance of the boat thing and the need for custom sails etc... that holds me back. Plus, the boat just looks funny with only part of the Bimini raised full height, so my guess is I will continue with ideas for an arch over the aft end the Bimini..., and live with the dreaded butt weight. Pivoting for trailering would be nice also, if it is not incorporated as a mast support.

The real problem seems to be the rather insubstantial deck to mount it to, It looks like more work to build the inside the hull deck mounting, (a difficult place to reinforce anyway), than to builld a rectangular cross section arch...,

Maybe I am looking at the problem wrong tho, I have seen on here a couple of pics of smaller arches that were only over the transom walkthrough,. That location seems slightly more accessible for mounting the reinforcing backing...., wouldnt interfere with the Bimini, and still would hold radar lights and antennas. as well as easily frame a walk through enclosure dorway. The only difficulty in mine would be the interference with the seat. (which does not fit under the bimini for full lifting.

And anyway, maintaining sail shape with the bimini up, watching tell tales, adjusting lines.. is a royal PITA, Sailing tightly kind of goes right out the transom.,

But, When it is raining and splashing that much..... the enclosure is necessary, not a luxury.

[Jeff Ritsema]

I agree with Chip that to have the traveler aft of the boom and as high as an arch is not workable. I wish I had a picture of the removable traveler that is installed on the 24' ETAP. This would be a perfect solution to the MAC or Odin. Their website does not offer an adequate picture of this ingenious setup. I will request a brochure and try to post this in the next few weeks.
My idea of an arch that would support the canvas of an enclosure would accommodate removing the snapped-on canvas when trailoring. I would also remove the electronics when trailoring, leaving only the skeleton arch up. I would be interested in the ideas of Duane's as it evolves, agreeing that that the Moyer version is more than what I had in mind. There was a very interesting one emailed to me by Bob Taylor- more akin to what I had in mind. Maybe Bob could post this on the board??

Maybe the best solution would simply be a retractable bimini frame that has an extended arch above the conventional frame, both the fore and aft bimini frame, that could support the canvas enclosure, electronics, and backstay. This could either be retracted when trailering or left up to support the mast when motoring mast down. The lighter, the better.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Waternwaves,

The nice thing about my enclosure is that it has no headroom issues like the low factory ones or the BWY one. You can see in this picture how an arch aligned with the forward bow would be just under the aft end of the boom. Even so I still think the better choice would be an aft one that just clears the aft bow of the bimini. This would get everything well up and out of the way. It's 6'8" above the transom level. There is 6'2" inside at the pedestal. The dodger is like the BWY one except it extends 18" further back into the cockpit giving much better protection. You can sit at the front ends of the seats and stay totally dry in the heaviest spray. They also leave just a shoe width of space along the side of the dodger making it easy to go forward.



I'd never trailer on the highway with any of my canvas up, but we often launch in Lake Washington which is 10 minutes away on 30 mph side surface streets. It's nice when we go there to have the bimini and the dodger up and ready. I zip out the front dodger window. This saves setup time. I also am able to have the life ring, life sling, cockpit coushions, etc; all that stuff preset. We have done this a number of times when we go out mastless, but I can't do it when we have to deal with raising the mast.

[Bobby T.-26X #4767]

I'll post some pictures.