Here's a sneak peak at roger's new 70 foot yacht.

[RobertB]

I generally try not to be too picky but a fiberglass boat is a fiberglass boat whether it is made of polyester resin or epoxy. It sounds like the CA rules are against polyester resin - not fiberglass. Yes, the epoxy resin can also be used for other fibers but I believe most budget items are still going to use fiberglass.

[BOAT]

The VOC restrictions are already spreading like the plague across the country. In the East they are called OTC states and they restrict VOC 1 pound/gallon or 120 grmas/liter.

Fiberglass resin is way over that. There are solvent free epoxies and they work well with carbon and other materials. Glass itself is a carcinogen. The push now is what material chemist call "Progressive Epoxy Polymer" (I'm not a chemist - don't ask me).

The CURRENT otc states are : Maine, Mass, New Hamp, RI, Vermont, Conn, NY, Penn, Ney Jersey, DC, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, Ohio and Ill.

You can still do as you please pretty much from Texas to Florida (the 'South') and I think Oregon too. Not sure about Washington. I don't think they will ever pass pollution laws like the OTC in the Gulf because of the oil industry there - it's too big. You can't stop the oil companies from polluting, no one can, not even Uncle Sam.

The future of fiberglass is pretty obvious.

[RobertB]

I remember when we pretty much eliminated all VOCs from the F-16 production line in the late 1980s. No more freon to clean parts and a change to all waterborne paints.

[Russ]

Your comments about fiberglass is just what my dad said the old timers were saying when fiberglass first came out. They said "wood will still be around for a long time!" They were wrong. Hardly zero production boats in wood now. Same thing is going to happen to fiberglass. You think it's okay to pollute in Florida more than other places?? (Is that why BP is there??) I don't think so - fiberglass will get chased out of Florida just like everywhere else sooner or later. In California they have the AQMD and big smog problems because all of So Cal is a valley. The stuff gets trapped. It's just the geography. Sooner or later it will catch up with anyone working in glass resin.

The reasons fiberglass replaced wood are more powerful than epoxy replacing resin.
It's MUCH easier to build a glass boat than wood with drastically lower labor costs and it also has the benefit of never rotting. You can shape it into just about anything and it's easy to repair. Wood boats didn't stand a chance against those properties.
Only legislation will force epoxy on us, it won't be demand or cost savings. It may be coming, or it may force boat hulls to be built offshore where regulations don't prohibit it. But it won't be demand.

As for fancy web sites and brochures: Yup, when you buy a bennetue 5% of what your spending is for marketing - I don't doubt that one bit. If snazzy marketing is what makes you feel good, then spend your money whatever way you want. When was the last time you saw an "Oracle grade Americas cup" with two bathrooms, full gally, and bedrooms for 8 people? I don't think your getting the magnatude of a luxury boat like that being almost as fast as Oracle and costing less money - all the snazzy websites in the world can't beat that.

Marketing is essentially creating an impression of value.
For my purchase, it was another Mac in my marina that caught my eye and this website that sold me on the boat. It was NOT the factory site.

I've heard another Mac owner make the case that the cheezyness of the factory website degrades the perceived quality of the boat and therefore also resale value of his boat. People interested in buying his boat googled it and found the factory site and got the impression that the boat is low quality.
Coke and Pepsi spend $billions on marketing to increase perceived quality. Their products aren't necessarily made any better than generic brands, but people will fork over more money for them. (I know this from my son's science fair project doing blind taste tests).

Nobody can argue that Roger built a unique boat that was affordable to a huge market. The quality of the Mac is about average and I think Roger can be proud of what he accomplished. He sold more boats than he could manufacture so he didn't need to spend money on marketing. I still wonder, however, how much junk Mac owners take from "pure" sailboat owners is based on the poor marketing.

[Russ]

When was the last time you saw an "Oracle grade Americas cup" with two bathrooms, full gally, and bedrooms for 8 people? I don't think your getting the magnatude of a luxury boat like that being almost as fast as Oracle and costing less money - all the snazzy websites in the world can't beat that.

The Americas cup boats don't even have motors. Different class altogether. Made for speed on a small course. That's Larry Ellison's Billionaire's club. Roger's 70 will be for the Millionaire's racing club. A great boat for blue water racing. I predict it will earn speed records (like the 65 did). Doesn't look too comfy for cruising though. The 65 wasn't either, but it was super fast. I wouldn't call it luxury. Fast and ugly yes. Mike laughed when asked, "Will there be any teak inside?" The 70 will market to the racing fanatics with lots of money. They won't be visiting the website. Is there even a website?

Watching the video did I hear Mike say "...bathroom inside". Bathroom?

[BOAT]

Just the facts, check the resale value on MacGregor sailboats compared to other comparable sailboats. It may surprize you.

[BOAT]

Yes, the old boat had one bathroom the new boat has two.

The new boat is water ballast, and the luxury is what you make it. If its wood that makes a boat luxury, then this boat has no luxury.

It will beat most all out racing only boats even in it's own size. Yes, there are other boats that can go faster, but not to the places this boat can go. No hotel room required.

The fastes way to Hawaii in a mono hull by wind, hands down.

[Russ]

Just the facts, check the resale value on MacGregor sailboats compared to other comparable sailboats. It may surprize you.

You may be right.
I was surprised to find that my boat which I put in over $40k into is now worth about $25k after 5 years. That's $15k depreciation over 5 years.
My dad paid $38k for his Hunter 34 which is now (28 years later) worth about $30k. Inflation and different dollars, but still only $8k over 28 years.
A boat is not an investment. However, the Mac doesn't have a rep as the best quality boat. A rep that I don't feel is justified. It is built fairly well. However, Macgregor has never done well on marketing. Didn't have to when selling new boats.

The new boat is water ballast, and the luxury is what you make it. If its wood that makes a boat luxury, then this boat has no luxury.

Luxury to me is wood. The Hunter 50 (20 feet shorter) has a bathtub and beautiful teak floors. That is luxury. A Ferrari is a fast car. A Rolls Royce is a luxury car. A Mac 70 is a fast boat, not a luxury boat. Yes, if you want to win a race to Honolulu, that's the boat to buy. If you want to cruise the Caribbean, stay clear of it.
Luxury my style

Luxury Hugh Hefner style

Yes, the old boat had one bathroom the new boat has two.

Sorry, the joke was too subtle.
I grew up on boats. My dad always referred to the place you relieved yourself either onboard or at home as the "head". Even in the hospital he said, "I have to use the head." They brought him on of those pan things and he called it the head. I thought everyone called it that. Hearing it called a bathroom on a boat sounded odd to me.

We called them cabins, now the trendy term is "staterooms". *shrug*

[BOAT]

Comparing a 34 foot boat with a 26 foot boat - yeah, that's really equivalent. Can you even FIND a 26 foot boat that has a resale value as high as the MAC?

[C Striker]

Dude really?

[BOAT]

How well do 25 and 26 foot sailboats hold thier value?? It's a very ligit question. Resale is the percentage of depreciation.

What do most people pay for a used MAC? Any takers?

[Russ]

Comparing a 34 foot boat with a 26 foot boat - yeah, that's really equivalent. Can you even FIND a 26 foot boat that has a resale value as high as the MAC?

Let's see.
Hunter 27 (close enough) sells for about $67k new.
I found this one that is 5 years old selling for $55k. Here's one going for $57k.

My boat has lost $15k or 37% of its value over the past 5 years
The Hunter 27 lost $12k or 18% of its value over 5 years.

Of course the Hunter is a different type of boat. Let's face it, there are few powersailors to compare a Mac to. The Odin?
But the Hunter did hold more value as a percentage of purchase price. Marketing? Consumer confidence in the product? I don't know. But I'm not overwhelmed with the Macgregor marketing machine.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Mac and it's perfect for how we use it. There really isn't any other boat out there like it even remotely in the price range. But the Macgregor brand didn't sell me, it's the design of the M that did. Cost vs. value you can't go wrong with the <=26 Macs.

The 70 is a different class of boat unlike any of the "small" boats he's built. Speed under sail is not my thing or I wouldn't have bought the M. There definitely is a market for an ultrafast offshore racer and the 70 will fit it perfectly. I'm sure Perini Navi yachts doesn't rely on its website either.

[BOAT]

Hunter - Is that all there is?? Look at all the boats like the MAC, the Aquarius, the Catalina, the Oday, Pacific Dolphin, and so forth. All good boats - many boats out there are better than the MAC, but resale value based on the cheap price you PAY for a MAC is not too bad. Most of these boats end up being donated or sawed up with a chainsaw.

Seawind and Westerly made a lot of boats too - Out here where I am the only trailer boats I see are the old flush deck Jensens (CAL) and old MacGreggors like the 25 - sailboats are just not real good investments and for what it cost to buy and maintain a MAC it's really hard to complain when you sell it.

You talk about 34 foot boats and it's just not EVEN CLOSE because a boat like that is 5 grand a year at least just for slip fees! The Hunter is a good boat, but what will ANY trailer boat be worth after it's 12 years old? What percentage of it's original value??

People just don't see triler boats a "high end" thing - all your flashy web sites and marketing are based on builders that make huge yaghts. Sure - the will be fancy. Has that really change which trailer boat MOST of the people buy??

Nope.

[BOAT]

Also, in regards to your math: The Mac is 22 grand, not 40 grand. If you got 25 your WAY ahead of the game.

I'm not talking about the depreciation on an outboard motor or a chart plotter.

Even a guy with a Hunter 34 is gonna put a few bucks into that thing, not to mention the 5 grand per year (at least) to slip the thing.

Your WAY ahead of the Hunter 34 on your depreciation.

As for the Hunter 26 or 27 or whatever that thing is, sure it's a really NICE boat that looks just like a MACm, but the hunter trailer boat has not been around for 12 years yet - lets see what they go for in 12 years and see if they even come close to that 67 grand. (I doubt it).

I will sail for ten years and if I depreciat 50% I loose 10 grand.
The hunter will sail for 10 tears and if it depreciates 20% you lose 12 grand

That's a pretty easy one to decide. (Like AS IF the Hunter 'trailer boat' is gonna go for 80% of it's value in 10 years - that's just DREAMING)

[Russ]

Also, in regards to your math: The Mac is 22 grand, not 40 grand.

The $22K price tag is the hull, mast and mainsail. It makes an impressive sign at a boat show. Cost less than I paid for my car. However, it's hardly a real usable boat at that stage. You need to add a motor, jib, anchor and goodies that other boat builders (like Hunter) include in the price and don't expect you to buy a la carte. My boat cost me $38k in order to use it. $40k it use is comfortably.

Now you don't need a motor, jib, anchor.......

I can slip a 35' hunter in my marina for the same price as my Mac, $750/year. However, you are correct in saying that generally the cost of ownership of a trailer sailer is extremely low. Another reason these boats are so popular. Once you own it, it doesn't keep bleeding you.

Every boat is different. You can't compare them side by side. However, the Mac does drop value very fast in those first few years. Like I said, I've lost 37% of what I have into it. To buy a new boat just like it (if they still made them) would cost me $15k more than I can get for my boat now.
With that said, when I bought my boat, I threw that money out the window and never expect to get it back. In return I have a fun boat that suits my needs well. If I ever sell it, it will be found money.